A great piece by a great man

[Khairan]

as salam alykomthat is exactly why i asked u the question which made u so confused, if u read Hazam's first post to which u agreed and liked much, u will realize how much it contradicts our faith.

You'll have to explain that to me -- I don't see how it contradicts our faith at all. The message of the article is that religion and science are compatible, and that despite all of the innovation and progress made in recent history, science has never given us a reason to disbelieve in God. What's wrong with that?

[Khairan]

Hazam -

was there a specific reason you posted the article, or was it just an FYI? Just curious...

And, for the sake of discussion:

Here then is a wonderful example of how science is increasingly informing theological debate. The question of whether life formed by law or chance can, and I believe will, be settled by observation and experiment. If life is finally made in a test tube, or discovered on Mars and shown to be completely independent of earthlife, then the meaningless fluke theory will be disproved. Life and mind will be revealed as part of the grand cosmic scheme, embedded in the nature of things at the deepest level of reality. Our own existence will be seen as linked to this deep level in an intimate and purposeful way. Instead of us playing a trivial role as incidental cosmic extras, with life on Earth an insignificant accident in a pointless universe, our place in the cosmos will be far more inspiring. True, it wouldn't return us to the centre of the universe or to the pinnacle of creation - our place is far more humble - but nor will it relegate us to the status of mere moving mounds of atoms. In my view, the discovery that life and mind have emerged as part of the natural outworking of the laws of the universe will be strong evidence for a deeper purpose in physical existence. Since it is easy to imagine other universes and other sets of physical laws that would prohibit life, the fact that our universe is so ingeniously bio-friendly would surely be a fact of the utmost significance. I hope you see the drift of my thinking. Invoking a miracle to explain life is exactly what is not needed to see evidence of divine purpose in the universe.

I think he's really overstating his case here. I'm in agreement with his overall message, but it's pretty arbitrary for him to decide that extraterrestrial life somehow "proves" that life didn't begin by chance. Seen another way, one could use the evidence to say that life DID begin by chance and that life beginning independently shows that it is not so unlikely an occurrence, thereby weakening the popular religionist argument that life is so unlikely that God HAD to have made it. Point being that the implications aren't as earth-shatteringly obvious as he is claiming here.

[Ibn_kumuna]

Salaam Alaikum!

Churches and other religious institutions seem ill-equipped to deal with the brave new world of big bang cosmology, quantum reality, genetic engineering and nanotechnology. As a result, many people see religion on the defensive against the onslaught of scientific progress. They think of science as undermining or displacing religion.

On the contrary! Kalam Philosophy (despite its brief argument) has always been congruent and essentially with Islam. The argument was first put forth by the Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali (now articulated by the Christian Philosopher William Craig Lane, nicely) and thus expanded later by Al-Farabi. Some might disagree with its premise, however. But to insist that "religious institutions" have always failed to bridge the assumed gap of religion and scientific conclusions is shallow and pure rubbish.

To further add, religion is hardly at odds with science (in agreement with Dr. Paul Davis). Those who arbitrarily see religion at loggerheads with science fail to fully grasp what religion (anthropologically) really means, and fall head first into tautological reductionism.

I would also like to question Hazam's intentions.

--Ibn

[Hazam'sBro]

LOL! My intentions? I just thought it was a solid article with various points that people who have committed to any religion might enjoy.

[Khairan]

LOL! My intentions? I just thought it was a solid article with various points that people who have committed to any religion might enjoy.

hahaWell, I'm not sure what Ibn meant, but I was just wondering if there was a specific direction you wanted to go with this.

[Muslimah]

So I conclude my remarks on a positive note. As we enter a new century likely to dominated by sweeping scientific and technological developments, the need for spiritual guidance will be stronger than ever. Science alone cannot adequately cater for our spiritual needs, but any religion that refuses to embrace scientific discovery is unlikely to survive to the 22nd century.

salam all

this conclusion is very interesting, although during the theme of the article there were points made of does this need a God to create, Any way.

The issue is that Chritians have a problem with this, due to the church position in the past that ignored science and made it unlawful.

While Islam is the other way around of this conclusion. Matter of fact, Allah revealed in Quran explanations of many scientific issues, some of them are already known to us now, were not known at the time of Mohamed (PAPBUH) such as embriology, space trips (yes it is mentioned in Quran and on this specially Allah is commanding mankind and jin to penetrate through space and telling them u will only penetrate with MY Authority), plus many other scientific facts. As simple as this, Islam does not deny science simply because Allah Owns all this knowledge and allowed mankind to learn it step by step. Again science does not prove the authinticity of the Quran, but the other way around. All was already contained in the Quran which was revealed to an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago. He lived on the land never went into the sea, yet Quran precisely explains the stages of a sea storm.

I dont want to elaborate on this now.

<b>Hazam let me tell u something, u have trouble in feeling sure that Allah Created this, and may be there is another God who created this God. So in other words u feel that all this universe was created by some super power.
</b>

Let me get a confirmation on this....

[Lamro]

Assalamu Aleykum to Mu/meenoon.

I would like to say that just one ayat from the Quran should be sufficient for any scientist who knows even a little bit about the creation of the universe and life.

<i></i>

21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Subhan Allah, before reading this ayat, I was very interested in the origins of universe, and life, and how shocked I was when I read this Great sign of Allah. Ponder on this ayat, since it is only proven in the past few decades that the heavens and the earth were indeed one before being clove asunder(big bang), and indeed life was created from water, which is why they are looking for water on mars now. Look at what Allah asks in the last part

Allahu Akbar!

There are many other similar miracles in the Quran.

[Muslimah]

Hazam's although I still didnt get a confirmation on my question, however, again u stated as may be there is another super power behind the creation of even Allah. Ok, if u say that may be God Create all this, how can u think that the Creator needs a creator?? logically no the Creator does not need a Creator, since He is enjoying Super powers allowing Him to Create this magnificant univers and other numerous items without any trouble. So how come will He need a Creator. and u never got back to me. I suggested that u examine the wind that we dont see or know exactly where it is, yet we feel its exitense. So is the soul, the reason of your life. We dont see it, feel it, know its location, yet if taken away one dies immediately. So why are u having trouble in just looking at yourself as one of the many evidences of Allah's EXistence.

I know that u might be taking time to ponder and think which is excellent Alhamdulelah, carry on thinking

[Hazam'sBro]

1)Hazam's although I still didnt get a confirmation on my question, however, again u stated as may be there is another super power behind the creation of even Allah.

There may be, indeed

2)Ok, if u say that may be God Create all this, how can u think that the Creator needs a creator?? logically no the Creator does not need a Creator, since He is enjoying Super powers allowing Him to Create this magnificant univers and other numerous items without any trouble.

How do you know he has these superpowers? And no, logic does not dictate that something can create itself. Make more sense next time. Thanks

3)So how come will He need a Creator. and u never got back to me. I suggested that u examine the wind that we dont see or know exactly where it is, yet we feel its exitense.

There is "wind" or a chemical mixture of other such gases on other planets as well. That doesn't lead us to God by any means however.

4)So is the soul, the reason of your life. We dont see it, feel it, know its location, yet if taken away one dies immediately.

I don't believe in the soul

5) So why are u having trouble in just looking at yourself as one of the many evidences of Allah's EXistence.

This could very well be, but I need proof instead of relying on blind faith. Sorry

7) I know that u might be taking time to ponder and think which is excellent Alhamdulelah, carry on thinking

I have thought long and hard, and have come to one conclusion. I know, that I know not :learn: