Question for Muslims

[wel_mel]

Hello joshua.

i am always in touch with priests, pastors ,Christians Bible scholars etc etc .. plus my wife's family are Christians. So what they explained to me about Jesus "pbuh" was different than what you believe or what you have been told.

they dont consider Jesus to be the son of God only, but they also beleive that Jesus was God Almighty in HUMAN FORM, was God himself incarnate. therefore they have to worship him. and that's why you always hear the term "LORD JESUS".

Obviously, Mary is the mother of Jesus - but every child that has a mother has a father. No human man was the father of Jesus - and because Allah is the one that created Mary's pregnancy with Jesus, I believe that is why they refer to God/Allah as the Father of Jesus.

so why they dont call Adam the son of God too ? he born without human father and without human mother !!!!! and the Bible itself refers to Adam as Son of God.. in Luke 3:38 "... Adam, which was the SON OF GOD"

actually the Bible refers to all human beings as SONS OF GOD. so what makes Jesus to be different son of God ?

you can see in the Bible in Genesis 6:2 & 4 " That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair.... " And when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them..."

again in Exodus 4:22 "... Israel is MY SON, even my firstborn:"

in jeremiah 31:9 ".. for i (God) am FATHER to Israel amd Ephraim is my firstborn."

in psalms 2:7 ".. the Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art MY SON: this day have I BEGOTTEN thee"

in Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD."

so you see according to the Bible we are all the SONS OF GOD.

May Allah show you and us the straight path. Ameen.

Salam brother.

wel_mel.

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom

Alhamdulelah I see that my brothers provided a comprehensive reply for this point Josh. My question exactly meant what u said. We need to know your course of development so we can help.

I dont think I have anything to add here. Insh a Allah will continue the course as we r going.

[joshua72]

Hello joshua.i am always in touch with priests, pastors ,Christians Bible scholars etc etc .. plus my wife's family are Christians. So what they explained to me about Jesus \"pbuh\" was different than what you believe or what you have been told.

they dont consider Jesus to be the son of God only, but they also beleive that Jesus was God Almighty in HUMAN FORM, was God himself incarnate. therefore they have to worship him. and that's why you always hear the term \"LORD JESUS\".  

salam alaikum,

I see what you are saying - and I guess I didnt word things right. What I meant was that I, as a christian, believed that Jesus was the son of God - but is also God in human form came to earth.

As far as my take on the trinity, I believe the trinity represents one God - not three; but one God is three forms. 1)God in only god's form 2)God in human form (Jesus) 3)God in spirit form (the holy spirit).

I think of it kind of like water. Water can be in three states - solid, liquid, and gas.

Although the three states of water are "different" - they are still the same water, just in different form. Steam is chemicaly exactly the same as ice - the structure is different, but the molecules are the same.

I know its a poor anology - but if you relate God to water, then:

Liquid = God in Heaven

Solid = Jesus

Gas = Holy spirit.

The different states of water are still only one water - the same portion of water can change throughout states without changing what it is.

This is, I believe, how what the trinity is about God. Same god, just different forms. Just like there is only one "water" there is only one God.

lol thats a little goofy for an anology, but its the best way I could put it.

[Hesham Azmy]

Dear Joshua,

The above explanation you provided is considered heretic by the Church; I do not think that Trinity - as defined by the Church - includes One Person in three forms, but One God in Three Persons.

Got the difference?

[joshua72]

One God in Three Persons.

Thats exactly what I am trying to say (I guess I am not doing it though).

Although I wouldnt say "three persons", as God in his godly form is not a person, nor is the holy spirit.

[naseeha]

Speaking relatively of the trinity... it's basis is much different from that of islam...

what i mean is this.... islamic information is based on very authentic sources... we take information only from the quran and the "oral traditions" and these oral traditions go through a VERY rigourous test before acceptance..

the point that i am drawing is this... in christianity this form of taking knowledge is not accepted... as a muslim... if someone says something about god... then that person has to back up his claim with the proof of that... not only that but his proof must only come from that which the prophet himself said, did or approved of... there are a few exceptions to this rule with regards technology and the like...

so as you can see we follow islam EXACTLY the way that the prophet himself did...

can christians say the same for christ...

well not with the trinity doctrine...

how did this thing come about....

hmmmmm????

well in the year 325AD an emperor named CONSTANTINE from CONSTANTINOPLE(i think this is today Istandbul if i am not mistakened).. he held a conference where proposed the trinity doctrine... this conference produced what is known today as the treaty of nicea...

he called alot of scholars of his time and they cast a vote... whether to institute the doctrine or not... the result was that the trinity doctrine should not be instituted... HOWEVER... The emperor still went ahead and passed the doctrine... which today is controversial among christians...(e.g. catholics and Jehova's witnesses)

Now that we see this... certain questions arises.... is this the same thing that jesus believed in???

did jesus claim to be part of the trinity doctrine....

did he <b>expressly</b> say so???

surely something as important as this would have been mentioned somewhere...

when asked to produce this most christians site verses where jesus is the son of god... but even considering this... where is the proof that jesus actually conformed to this belief...

if he did not then.. why do the christians believe in this if jesus didnt say so??

hmmm????

who do they take their info from...

jesus???

or matthew, mark,luke and john???

or king james...

so josh you see the difference here with islam and christianity...

when it comes to things like this we are very strict with whom we get our info from....

now considering the above....

answer this with proof....

do christians do the same....

please note josh.. my words are for knowledge NOT for argument... i hope insha allah that we will both learn from these discussions

[joshua72]

salam,

very good post! And dont worry - I read it as knowledge, not as argument.

I have read about Constantine and Constantinople before (which you are right, it is Istanbul today) but I never knew about the trinity doctrine. Thanks for sharing that!

One thing I noticed about the Bible and the Quran is this:

In the King James version of the Bible (maybe others, too) the actual words that Jesus (and God, to the christians) said are written in red; the rest is written in black. Now if you compare how much of the Bible is written in red (what Jesus/God actualy said) to what is written in black, you will see that a VERY SMALL portion of the Bible is the actual words of Jesus/God. The rest is what mortal man has said.

Compared to the Quran, where every word is what God said, I think it is very easy to see the difference.

Also, in the Bible, it was up to normal men to decide what went into it and what did not. During the time of the Romans (after Constantine was the first ruler to accept Christianity) the literate men of the Church had to decide what was to go in the Bible and what was not. Many parts of the actual Bible are no longer in it, and extra parts have been added. These things were taken out and added in LONG after the time of the prophets.

So you basicly have to ask your self 'Do you want a religion based on what man decides to suit him, or do you want one based on the actual word of God that has not, or will never, change?'

(also note that when I say 'Jesus/God' I mean that in terms of christians, who believe that Jesus and God are one and the same - I am not saying that is the way it really is)

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom

I will quote a post made by Dan on another thread, Insh a Allah it will help, it might contain repetion of some info naseeha gave, but Insh a Allah it will help Josh.

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Bismillah

Michelle, I appreciate your quest for knowledge. Before I was muslim, I was catholic also.

Yet even before I thought of being muslim, there were things about the faith that I had trouble with. Such as if Jesus was fully human and divine, there are contradictions in that. Being a man one produces sperm. It is just a fact of being fully man. Jesus remained celebate. If one does not rid sperm from sex then it is either discharged in a nocturnal emmission or through the urine. These living cells could not die because they are from one who is divine right? and Jesus is eternal, correct? So are there billions of little eternal cells in existance, which contradicts God being one? Or was Jesus just really a blessed man? Jesus also had to defecate and urinate. It is part of being human. Is this befitting of God?

Also there was a council held in the 900s I think called the Council of Nicea. This council was formed to decide whether or not Jesus was human, god, or part of each, or fully both. So a group of men decided the nature of God. In Islam, God has told us who He Is.

Also, Islam does not have the concept of Original Sin. Adam and Eve both sinned and both attoned for this sin. (Notice Islam does not put the sin mostly on Eve as Christianity does, which alludes to women being less vituous then men. A view that was propogated through much of Christian history.) Islam believes that only the person who committed the sin is accountable for that sin and only God alone without intecessor can forgive that sin. This concept appealled to me greatly. Why do I have to tell a priest about my fallacies? Didn't I offend God not him? So what does the priest have to do with it? We know that priests sin also sometimes more than what catholics call laypeople. The closeness to God is achieved not by going to some school and through certain rituals but rather through ones deeds. Anyone can get close to God in Islam.

God is the most Just and Merciful, correct? Then why would He torture His own son to forgive our sins? How is this mercy? "God so loved the world that He sent His only Son?" Either God does not really love His son or His love for us is not what we think. If I told my wife that I love her so much that I am going to kill my daughter for her, does that make sense? When the newspapers have stories of mothers killing their children so their boyfriends will be happy, this is out of love of the mother for her boyfriend. Does it make sense to those of us that think rationally?

Do you believe that God gave us gifts to be used? Then why is one of the major gifts of rationality ignored in catholicism?

I would question my mother how three equals one, how could God be one when clearly Jesus and God were apart for a while? "It is just a mystery," would be her reply. "You have to have faith." Faith in what? I don't even know what I am supposed to have faith in. None of questions could be answered. Would God give us a religion that we could not understand?

As for the Bible being uncorrupt, there are many contradictions in it. Read it from front to back like I did and you will see them. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and is still in the same exact Arabic as when it was revealed.

How many different versions of the Bible exist? Which one is the correct version? Jesus spoke Aramaic. Where is the bible in Aramaic, which would be the exact words of Jesus? Some gospels were written in Hebrew then translated to Greek then Latin, then the various editions that exist now. If you have taken any foreign language especially on of the non-Romance languages, you know that many times it is difficult to find exact words to translate with.

Also the gospels were written many years after Jesus died. Mark was first around 40AD. He was a disciple of one of the apostles, so the story was second hand, not a eye witness account. The next gospels, Matthew and Luke were written about 70 years after Jesus' death. Both were also based on the gospel of Mark. That is why they are so similar. John was written 100 years after Jesus' death. Also many other gospels were written, one of which was by the apostle Barnabas. Why is his not included? How were these four chosen? Once again by a group of men, not God.

It just occurred to me that you may now find my facts reliable, which I understand since you do not know me. I found out all this in my catholic educatoin which I received for twelve years in private catholic school.

If you are happy with your religion, then that is fine with me. If every person in the world decided to no longer be muslim (which won't happen), I would still be muslim. My faith in this beautiful religion cannot be shaken Insha'Allah. Many people have tried to talk me out of my faith and I let them try. If someone can bring me a religion with more truth, then I would convert to that. It has yet to happen and it never will. I have studied many other religions while I was in college also and none have even come close to Islam. It has everything I need. Peace, paradise, rules to show me how God wants me to please Him, my deeds are mine alone.

I know of many other things that led me from christianity but I have written enough for now. Feel free to ask if you want because I feel our backgrounds are probably more similar than that of other members of the board. I apologize if I have angered or offended you. Writing this though has also stregthened my resolve even more that I have made the correct choice.

I truly did not want to offend you but I only wanted to have truth expressed with out candy coating it.

Thank you. God Bless you, me and everyone else.

Alhamdulillah

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Also I will give u a link later on for another article a helpful one. Just trying to help u take things easssssssyyyyy

[naseeha]

you seem to be gettin the drift josh...

thanks for not taking this as an argument i know there are others who would have...

may allah guide you to the right path

[Muslimah]

salam,Compared to the Quran, where every word is what God said, I think it is very easy to see the difference.

(also note that when I say 'Jesus/God' I mean that in terms of christians, who believe that Jesus and God are one and the same - I am not saying that is the way it really is)

Mash aAllah Josh, so in such case a question emerges here, now at this point how do u see Jesus, provided the Quran say he is not but a Messenger and Prophet and that Allah Never took sons neither that Jesus is Allah????

Insh a Allah as soon as this point is clear with u, we shall continue, if u need Quran Ayahs let me know.... :smilingfl