Shaikh Ahmad Yaseen Killed by Israeli's After Fajer Today! ;(

[Ibn_kumuna]

Salaam Alaikum!

The situation is more complex than time will allow. I believe the issue is more of human values. It seems pretentious on one hand to slam the Israeli govt. for it’s policies towards the Palestinians and then return the favor with killing an innocent child or bombing a bus loaded with non-partisan workers. Wouldn’t that make us just as pernicious and vehement as the IDF? I believe in taking up arms against the oppressor-but that’s just it—we need to take up arms against the oppressors, not innocent by standers who probably agree with our cause.

On the flip side, if we’re so concerned about injustice, why don’t we all protest against those sanctions and dictations of President “Islam Karimov” of Uzbekistan who continuously tortures, mutates and boils his own people (mainly Muslim and Human rights activist). His rogue govt. deserves marches and protests from Muslims (AND NON-MUSLIMS) around the world. Islam Karimov is a Muslim, but his policies resemble Saddam's baath party. With that said, I expect Ariel Sharon to act inhumanely against the Palestinians, but I frown avidly and go raving mad when a Muslim leader sinks just as low. Since he’s in the ‘house of Islam’ he’s our responsibility.

Islam revolves around humanistic tendencies. We mustn’t drop the humanistic and moral imperative in favor of political iconoclasm. Such short comings breeds other ominous and malicious zealots—and puts a damper deep into the heart of Islam’s true nature.

I hope I made sense. Correct me if I made any idiosyncrasies

Ibn

[Hazam'sBro]

<i>Originally posted by radiyah </i><b>I will not talk much here, but I was wondering why are we all waiting for condemnation from America to Israeli's act,</b>

America was built on the bodies of red Muslim indians, so here they are equal.

Red Muslim Indians? ROFL. This just went in my list of the top ten most ridiculous things I have ever heard list. The Native Americans were not Muslims buddy.

<b>Second today I saw a program on tv, there was a pole going between the Israelis about palestine and the peace process, so they said no kill all palestenians every last one of them women and children. So when we hear that will we sympathize with any of the civilians, no of course not.</b>

Maybe you can do all of us a favor and think for yourself from time to time. If you do not condemn the death of all and every civilian from both sides of the fence, then this circle of violence will continue indefinitely.

<b>And phat will never be convinced of our point of view because he does not c it from our point of view. yes it is wrong to kill civilians, wrong to kill children and women, but when one is put into the same situation the palestenians are in , well I wonder.</b>

If you recall the Indians were in a very similar situation the Palestinians are currently in when the British occupied their territory. I never recalled Gandhi resorting to such violence to get his message across. Maybe picking up a few of his ideals would not be such a bad idea, ey?

<b>All I can say, that TERROR ignites TERROR. tooth for tooth eye for eye.</b>

The only thing I agree with. Both sides are responsible for this bloody ordeal.

[Muslimah]

<i>Originally posted by Ibn_kumuna </i>On my second point—the root of this whole fiasco is nationalism. Following in Zia Sardar’s footsteps, we as Muslims need to excel beyond “national state” rage. Both Palestinians and Israeli’s prop up rhetoric (Biblical and Quranic) to gain sympathy from those on the sidelines.  

( [/b]

as salam alykom brother Ibn

honestly I did not read the rest of replies, however, a point u seriously need to examine while talking here. U can not include Quran and bible in comparison calling them rhetoric. If this comes from a non muslim fine we accept it. But from a muslim it raises concern for our brother.

second I d like u very much to search for the meaning of the word Ribat. try to run a search if u can not find it let me know, Insh a Allah will gladly explain

u seem to be a search loving young muslim:)

[phatmonky]

<i>Originally posted by Ibn_kumuna </i><b>Salaam Alaikum!  </b>

The situation is more complex than time will allow. I believe the issue is more of human values. It seems pretentious on one hand to slam the Israeli govt. for it’s policies towards the Palestinians and then return the favor with killing an innocent child or bombing a bus loaded with non-partisan workers. Wouldn’t that make us just as pernicious and vehement as the IDF? I believe in taking up arms against the oppressor-but that’s just it—we need to take up arms against the oppressors, not innocent by standers who probably agree with our cause.  

On the flip side, if we’re so concerned about injustice, why don’t we all protest against those sanctions and dictations of President “Islam Karimov” of Uzbekistan who continuously tortures, mutates and boils his own people (mainly Muslim and Human rights activist). His rogue govt. deserves marches and protests from Muslims (AND NON-MUSLIMS) around the world. Islam Karimov is a Muslim, but his policies resemble Saddam's baath party. With that said, I expect Ariel Sharon to act inhumanely against the Palestinians, but I frown avidly and go raving mad when a Muslim leader sinks just as low. Since he’s in the ‘house of Islam’ he’s our responsibility.  

Islam revolves around humanistic tendencies. We mustn’t drop the humanistic and moral imperative in favor of political iconoclasm. Such short comings breeds other ominous and malicious zealots—and puts a damper deep into the heart of Islam’s true nature.  

I hope I made sense. Correct me if I made any idiosyncrasies  

Ibn

This is the bulk of what I am getting at. However,I fear many on this board do not see things this way. And so long as that is the case, both the Palestinians and Iraelis will slip together down the slippery slope of immorality, and this whole situation will never end.

[phatmonky]

<i>Originally posted by Muslimah </i><b>as salam alykom brother Ibn  </b>

honestly I did not read the rest of replies, however, a point u seriously need to examine while talking here. U can not include Quran and bible in comparison calling them rhetoric. If this comes from a non muslim fine we accept it. But from a muslim it raises concern for our brother.

second I d like u very much to search for the meaning of the word Ribat. try to run a search if u can not find it let me know, Insh a Allah will gladly explain

u seem to be a search loving young muslim:)

Muslimah, I do not mean to answer for the other poster, but you can have quranic rhetoric without that meaning the Quran's words are rhetoric. If someone is using the language in the Quran out of context solely to justify their actions, that is rhetoric. However, it is wrong for the person to be doing that, not that the Quran itself is wrong.

[radiyah]

Originaly posted by Hazam's bro\"Red Muslim Indians? ROFL. This just went in my list of the top ten most ridiculous things I have ever heard list. The Native Americans were not Muslims buddy.

Excuse me first I am not buddy , my name is radiyah I am a lady.

Second why dont u try and educate yourself a little bit in history, but anyways it is my mistake that I did not fortify my post with proof in the first place so here it is read it:

http://www.islamworld.net/rim.html

http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before...e-columbus.html

http://foclark.tripod.com/gypsy/journal.htm

http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/299...996_comment.php

http://www.thenationofmoorish-americans.org/origin.htm

http://www.ferris.edu/torch/Opinions/10-03-01.html

the last link is a rich one, its heading

A legacy lost to most history books

By Omar Ha-Redeye

Ferris State Torch

and the begining of the article says:

Among the harshest backlash against Muslims has been the suggestion to deport us. Such perspectives demonstrate an ignorance of the history of this fledgling nation and our early presence here.

Islam was the fastest spreading religion in history. During the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, envoys were sent from the Atlantic shores of West Africa to the Pacific shores of China. Within a century, the majority of inhabitants in many of these regions became Muslim.

Dr. Berry Fell of Harvard University discovered the existence of Islamic schools in Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, and Indiana as early as the eigth century CE, the product of contact between Muslim West Africans and Native Americans. These explorers intermixed with the Natives and produced an important component of the Olmec, Hohokam, Anasazi, Algonquin, and Iroquois tribes.

The Chinese \"Sung Document\" relate Muslim sailors crossing the Pacific to modern California in 1178. Moors from Spain and North Africa continued to explore the Caribbean and eastern shores of the continent.

Do u need more, please educate yourself historically before answering that what I said was redicolous.

Maybe you can do all of us a favor and think for yourself from time to time. If you do not condemn the death of all and every civilian from both sides of the fence, then this circle of violence will continue indefinitely.

well, I will if they will stop killing innocent palestinians and the war on Islam stops.

If you recall the Indians were in a very similar situation the Palestinians are currently in when the British occupied their territory. I never recalled Gandhi resorting to such violence to get his message across. Maybe picking up a few of his ideals would not be such a bad idea, ey?

Well, Ghandy was helped by muslims, and then he turned his back against them, will u do a bit of history researching or do u like me to reasearch it for u too? and ghandy was not a muslim that is why the british left peacfully without fighting.

The only thing I agree with. Both sides are responsible for this bloody ordeal.

The one who is responsible is sharon, he ignited the intifada when he entered the holly mosque of Al-Aqsa, and prevented the palestenians to pray there, and are starting to dig for their so called wall of Soloman which does not exist, and they are digging under the mosque which is a very dangerous act that will help in the collapse of the holly mosque.

And can I ask u a question if u do not mind? what is your relegion?

[Ibn_kumuna]

Salaam Alaikum!

I’m not sure everyone will agree with me, but I believe (whole heartedly) that this whole conflicted has given the Islamaphobes serious weaponry. Reason being? The conflict (draped in a nationalistic cloth) has reduced Islam to pure politics. That’s a grave step, indeed! Islam is beyond politics and nationalism. There’s a whole smorgasbord of interesting things that Islam brings forth to the world than a one-sided—partisan—political machine. Upon reading Phatmonkey’s posts, I believe he was headed in the right direction with some of his points.

One of the dangers of Islam being completely political is that it lacks the moral imperative. Let me give one example. Take Iran, for instance. You had a political ideologist in the Ayatollah Khomeine (political Islamologues I call them) who wanted to implement a zealous-political Islamic state. He got one. But, what has become of this ‘Islamic state’? The state was set up on political ambitions and the result was the suspension of values, humanity and the moral imperative. No one I know would want to live in his assumed utopian Islamic state. It lacked everything that we seek in an Islamic state: social welfare (pace the economic welfare). Say for the sake of argument that the Palestinians get a state---or better yet---say Israel was wiped off the map—then what? Would that end the crisis that’s going on in the Islamic world? Would that end honor killings and rape that’s prevalent in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh? Would that make Saudi Arabia end their “so-called” religious police and treat non-Saudi’s peacefully? Would that end secularism? Would that end the vogue of post-modernist thought? Nay! What’s a stake in this whole situation is the moral imperative. When Islam is stripped of it’s moral imperative, political Islamologues come to scene and interpret Islam to their likings and use any form of violence to convey their point.

Let me quote a Pakistani intellectual to sum up my whole point:

‘What we are concerned with are the universal values of Islam that emphasize justice, unity of thought and ideas, a holistic approach to the study of nature and social relevance of intellectual and scientific endeavor. In this framework, fragmentation, meaningless and endless reduction and appropriation of god-like powers of monopoly of truth and marginalisation and suppression of other forms of knowledge are shunned.’

I apologize for this post being rather chaotic—I have lack of time. Once again, if there are any discrepancies, please advise the author.

Ibn Kumuna

[Ibn_kumuna]

Salaam Alaikum!

There’s a point I wanted to make. I strongly believe that in the current situation going on in Israel-Palestine is nationalistic. And, to that extent, they (both Israeli’s and Palestinians) use the bible and the Quran to justify their positioning.

I protest against this narrow approach. Being a former Christian, I had the luxury to read the bible from a religious standpoint. Now that I’m a Muslim, who as an undergraduate at university studies Archaeology of the Ancient Near East, I can read the bible from the standpoint of an objective Muslim with tentative credentials in Biblical criticism. When I look at the bible and read its stories, propaganda, prose fiction, and myth I can only frown at how most zealous Israeli’s (and some Jews) take the bible literally and use it to erect apartheid policies. For instance, some take the story of Moses (Musa in Arabic) and epitomize it for Israeli nationalism. Struggling to make a relevant connection between that story and the modern-day conflict, they become textual manipulators and slap the bible hard with their one-sided, barbaric and despotic understanding of a biblical story.

With that said, we have a similar vogue in Islam. Though, unlike the Bible, the Quran is the unadulterated word of Allah (swt). It’s a text of transcendence, history, poetry and understanding. It was purely a mercy from Allah (swt). Though, some have went far enough to pervert Allah’s (swt) word! How? Political Islamologues take simple verses out of the Quran and apply them whenever the argument or situation seems convenient. By doing so, they reduced the Quran to the format of a cookbook (Do’s and Don’ts). They take the Quran out of context, insert their very own commentary of the verses, and spread it like wildfire. If that’s the kind of Quranic studies one wants, one can have it! But for us Muslims who want Quranic studies redolent of values—morality—correct commentaries and transliteration—I say protest against such a narrow reading of the Quran.

No! I am not a scholar of the Quran nor am I a scholar on Islam. But, never let the Quran lose its true meaning---that would be to follow in the footsteps of the ‘People of the Book’.

Ibn

[Hazam'sBro]

<i>Originally posted by radiyah </i><b>Excuse me first I am not buddy , my name is radiyah I am a lady.</b>

Second why dont u try and educate yourself a little bit in history, but anyways it is my mistake that I did not fortify my post with proof in the first place so here it is read it:

Ignorance may lie in waves of bliss from where you come from, but the next time you want to argue with a History major, be sure you have the complete story.

Despite a long history of persecution and suppression by the U.S. and Canadian governments, hundreds of indigenous religious traditions have endured in North America. Ancient traditional religions of the Pueblo and Iroquois (Haudenosaunee), for example, survive and remain strong, while other Native Americans practice Christianity exclusively. Some Native Americans pray in church and attend Indian healing ceremonies, finding that both traditions offer comfort. Still others follow the Peyote religion, which attracts followers from many U.S. tribes.

Native Americans in both the United States and Canada have a long tradition of transmitting religious ceremonies and ideas through traditional stories. There is no written sacred book like the Bible, although some North American Indians keep records with sacred symbols written on wooden sticks or woven into wampum belts. Native North American storytellers have kept alive spiritual and cultural traditions by telling stories that pass on a wide range of teachings about a people’s creation, moral behavior, laws, and survival skills.

<b>well, I will if they will stop killing innocent palestinians and the war on Islam stops.</b>

There is no war on Islam. are you talking about? And let's not forget how many innocent civilians suicide bombers have killed.

<b> Well, Ghandy was helped by muslims, and then he turned his back against them, will u do a bit of history researching or do u like me to reasearch it for u too? and ghandy was not a muslim that is why the british left peacfully without fighting.</b>

LOL, you are saying the British left because Gandhi was not a muslim? Man, I really don't know where you are from, but it seems pretty obvious you have been brainwashed by zealots and religious bigots. I thought the British gave India its independence ONLY if the two nationalist nations, thhe Muslim League and the Congress Party, resolved their differences?

<b>The one who is responsible is sharon, he ignited the intifada when he entered the holly mosque of Al-Aqsa, and prevented the palestenians to pray there, and are starting to dig for their so called wall of Soloman which does not exist, and they are digging under the mosque which is a very dangerous act that will help in the collapse of the holly mosque.</b>

Wait a second, are you saying that the suicide bombings are because of a religious building? If this is truly your argument then I have less respect for the religion of Islam that I previously thought.

<b>And can I ask u a question if u do not mind? what is your relegion? </b>

I am an agnostic. I do not believe in religion

[phatmonky]

Hazam's, while I agree with much of what you are saying, please keep the tone down. Muslimah might enjoy locking a thread that degrades to anger, but if it is locked while we simply ask questions, I get to yell about how I am being censored again

Really though, let's keep it cool in here