Can Islam co exist with non Muslims

[Muslimah]

Jazakum Allah khairan ahmed

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by Muslimah </i><b>Jazakum Allah khairan ahmed </b>

Hey !! Are you cursing me

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by AhmedSyed </i><b>Just to make Habib's search shorter. Ill post the verses from Yusuf Ali's transalation here.</b>

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). (4:90)

Oh, and it would help to see the footnotes on 4:89 and 4:90.

That's certainly one aspect of it. There are other verses (not in chapter 4) that also state fight, kill, slaughter, etc until they succumb to Islam.

Look, I'm not implying that every Muslim is out to get me, absolutely far from it. But in <i>some</i> Islamic countries, e.g Saudie Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, non Muslims are treated like second class citizens. If this teaching does not come from the Qu'ran, you telll me, where does it come from ?

[Muslimah]

<i>Originally posted by HabibHibee </i><b>Hey !! Are you cursing me  :D </b>

no way la ilaha ila Allah I never curse never, we are commanded not to Habib, I was just telling Ahmed may Allah reward him:)

[Guest]

Nah, I didn't think so

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by HabibHibee </i><b>  </b>

If this teaching does not come from the Qu'ran, you telll me, where does it come from ?

If comes from a human beings free thinking. People chose for themselves how they think, behave, and deal with other people. The Quran is there for to guide, but one can also chose to ignore it and do something else. There are some Christians who bomb abortion clinics, and the Araian Nation Church that advocates Naziism, and white supremecy. I don't think the problem here has anything to do with Holy Books, it is just human weakness. It can be found everywhere.

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>If comes from a human beings free thinking.  People chose for themselves how they think, behave, and deal with other people.  The Quran is there for to guide, but one can also chose to ignore it and do something else. </b>

But this is my point about Islam SisJen, it doesn't seem like Islam can accept free thought. Islam (or any cosy religion) is a nice concept, everyone on the same page regarding a moral lifestyle. But humans are not like that.

More importantly, you cannot ignore the Qu'ran in certain regions of the world, it is not an option in say Saudie or Iran. Look at the conflict around the world is it really christianity against Islam ? Or is it really Islam against the rest of the world ?

[AhmedSyed]

But in some Islamic countries, e.g Saudie Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, non Muslims are treated like second class citizens. If this teaching does not come from the Qu'ran, you telll me, where does it come from ?

They might, I don't know, I left Pakistan when I was 6.

But even if they were, it cannot be Islam's fault. It is the fault of the followers who commit such atroucious acts.

it doesn't seem like Islam can accept free thought.

And what would make you say that?

Look at the conflict around the world is it really christianity against Islam ? Or is it really Islam against the rest of the world ?

Habib, first of all. Islam can't be held responsible for what its followers do. What if I held Christianity for what happend to the Jews in the pogroms (attacks made on Jewish villages). Is that justice? Is it fair for me to hold the religion accountable?

If you look at what the west went through in order to become this great empire it is now, you'll see that it had to defeat the muslim empires along the way. It is fight that has been going on for centuries.

Islam isn't the problem here, its HUMANS. We are the bloodsheders, not Islam (which teaches us to control our anger and to use the sword only when our lifes are in certain danger).

Habib, I strongly urge you to make a new thread in which you can post all the verses in the Quran that you have a question about.

That way, we can take it one at a time.

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by AhmedSyed </i><b>They might, I don't know, I left Pakistan when I was 6.  </b>

But even if they were, it cannot be Islam's fault. It is the fault of the followers who commit such atroucious acts.

And what would make you say that?  

I look at world events and use different resources including the writings of Islamic dissidents who want changes. I think it is the fault of the followers and the mullas who preach in the so called madrasses. It's all over the place, Sri Lanka, Philipines, Bangladesh, Afghanistan (anything with "stan" actually) and so it goes on. Islam seems like a magnet for religious zealots. Not your fault I know, but that;s the way I see it.

<i>Originally posted by AhmedSyed </i><b></b>

Habib, first of all. Islam can't be held responsible for what its followers do. What if I held Christianity for what happend to the Jews in the pogroms (attacks made on Jewish villages). Is that justice? Is it fair for me to hold the religion accountable?

If you look at what the west went through in order to become this great empire it is now, you'll see that it had to defeat the muslim empires along the way. It is fight that has been going on for centuries.  

Histrorically, I cannot say with any degree of certainty about what went on in 7th century arabia but from my understanding, Islam also went on the rampage throughout the region and was eventually stopped by the French, funnily enough. Russia apparantly rejected Islam because the ruler at the time Ivan, did not want to give up vodka. So you could argue Islam merely lost what it had attained through its own aggressive expansion. But that is neither here not there in todays world.

<i>Originally posted by AhmedSyed </i><b></b>

Islam isn't the problem here, its HUMANS. We are the bloodsheders, not Islam (which teaches us to control our anger and to use the sword only when our lifes are in certain danger).

Islam IS the problem and here is why. Islam is not really a religion, it is a regime. It is a regime that cannot adapt to a modern world (civilisation) and cannot be reformed, so I am told. While Islam insists on barbaric laws such as stoning someone to death for the "crime" of sex outside of marriage, homosexuality is also a death sentence and so on, then it is always going to be in conflict with western idealogy. I've said before, I don't care about a persons religious beliefs, but it cannot be part of the law system, complete seperation of church and state is what I am about.

<i>Originally posted by AhmedSyed </i><b></b>

Habib, I strongly urge you to make a new thread in which you can post all the verses in the Quran that you have a question about.

That way, we can take it one at a time.

It's not so much about specific verses now but if I find something that interests me, I will certainly post a question on it although I am more likely to question sharia law, human rights and the oppression of women in Islam.

And one last thing, I don't believe Muslim are bad people, far from it. But I do think that some of the teachings in the Qu'ran are <i>suspect</i> and that the last prophet, well lets say, he is a somewhat <i>"colourful"</i> character.

[Ahmed Abdullah]

<i></i>Islam IS the problem and here is why. Islam is not really a religion, it is a regime. It is a regime that cannot adapt to a modern world (civilisation) and cannot be reformed, so I am told. While Islam insists on barbaric laws such as stoning someone to death for the \"crime\" of sex outside of marriage, homosexuality is also a death sentence and so on, then it is always going to be in conflict with western idealogy. I've said before, I don't care about a persons religious beliefs, but it cannot be part of the law system, complete seperation of church and state is what I am about.  

And one last thing, I don't believe Muslim are bad people, far from it. But I do think that some of the teachings in the Qu'ran are suspect and that the last prophet, well lets say, he is a somewhat <i>\"colourful\"</i> character. [/b]

If you look Habib in the Old Testemnet stoning for adultery has been a law of God since it was reviled to Moses, alayhe salaam. Fornication, homosexuality....the same thing. So there is nothing new here at all. That is what is wrong with Christianity, you can not change the law of God to fit ones way they like to see their religion. There is no new commandment that says have a couple of beers and chill out, or love your neighbor, but don't get caught.

The Qur'an was reviled to Muhammed(SAW) as the final words of Allah(SWT) because the religion has been tampered with by mankind. It has not changed, nor will it ever be changed. Our prophet(SAW) never started wars or was ever the agressor as you seem to think He(SAW) was. Conflicts came about because of the peoples wanting to kill the Prophet(SAW), or treaties broken between the Muslims and the Jews. When the Prophet(SAW) finally came back to Mecca with a tremendous group of followers, He(SAW) could have wiped out the entire town. But did that happen? No, He(SAW) peacefully came back and forgave the people. And guess what, the people of Mecca too became Muslims because of the kindness, forgiveness, and mercy of the Prophet(SAW).

Islam is not the problem, and I agree with Brother AhmedSyed it is the people of ALL religions, or in some cases no religion at all. They are the ones who disobeyed Alah(SWT) and their religion.

If people would follow their religion, that is all the laws that there would need to be for people to live in peace and harmony. But as we know this is not a perfect world. Islam is all about, Peace and the submission to Allah(SWT) commands.