Liberal Muslims

[Ali]

Islam and christianity cannot be compared, because there is a huge fundamental difference. Islam is a deen, and Christianity a religion. Islam wants itself to be established as a system, and not only as a set of beliefs. On the contrary Christianity is only a set of beliefs, ... are there any laws in Christianity? .. Confession? Some christian sects even don't believe in that!

And there is only one Islam, and the defination of a muslim, and mo'min(believer) is different. Yes I am a fundamentalist, but not a terrorist.

-- Ali

[John 3:16]

Ali - Is it necessary for every Muslim to be a fundamentalist like you?

Correct if I'm wrong in assuming the following but there's a certain logic here

* Every Muslim then is a fundamentalist, meaning that you adhere strictly to the Qur'an (Many people believe that a fundamentalist of any sort is dangerous and can be potentially tagged as a terrorist, this of course is not the case because a fundamentalist is a strong believer in something and a terrorist is an idiot, there is one exception though)

If the belief insists on taking the path of a terrorist if one is to accomplish a task.

Do you agree so far?

[John 3:16]

Do you agree with the below verses from the Qur'an or do you believe they are up for reinterpretation so as to modernise the meaning?

I would like for you all to comment on the below. However if you agree with the below and as a Muslim, you should agree with it all and practise what is preached, well then, I must say that if you are not a terrorist, which I don't believe any of you are, then I don't know why you are Muslims. Could you explain how one could go about justifying the quotes posted here?

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."

2:224 "Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things."

3:157-158 "And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together."

3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."

3:195 "... Those who have ... fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God ..."

4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

4:74, 75 "Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."

4:89 "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them…"

4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).

5:36 "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter."

5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

8:12-17 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war ... he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed)."

8:59-60 "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know ..."

8:65 "O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding."

9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."

9:14 "Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame ..."

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."

61:4 "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

<b>And these from The Hadith </b>

"Allah's Apostle said, ‘Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.’" (vol. 4, p. 55)

"Allah's Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me…" (vol. 4, p. 124)

"It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he has made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land…" (vol. 4, p. 161)

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (vol. 9, p. 45)

"An infidel spy came to the Prophet while he was on a journey. The spy sat with the companions of the Prophet and started talking and then went away. The Prophet said (to his companions), ‘Chase and kill him.’ So, I killed him. The Prophet then gave him the belongings of the killed spy." (vol. 4, pp. 181-182)

"Some people from the tribe of Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milk) camels of charity and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die." (vol. 8, pp. 519-520)

"The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." (vol. 4, pp. 158-159)

[AhmedSyed]

<i>Originally posted by John 3:16 </i><b>Ali - Is it necessary for every Muslim to be a fundamentalist like you?          </b>

Correct if I'm wrong in assuming the following but there's a certain logic here

* Every Muslim then is a fundamentalist, meaning that you adhere strictly to the Qur'an (Many people believe that a fundamentalist of any sort is dangerous and can be potentially tagged as a terrorist, this of course is not the case because a fundamentalist is a strong believer in something and a terrorist is an idiot, there is one exception though)

If the belief insists on taking the path of a terrorist if one is to accomplish a task.

Do you agree so far?

It is necessary for every muslim to follow Islam, not to be a fundalemtalist or a liberal.

Terrorism has no place in Islam!

[AhmedSyed]

John, if you do have some problems with some of the verses of the Quran or the Hadith; please start a new thread and we can explain them to you.

Salam.

[John 3:16]

AhmedSyed, you and Ali obviously disagree, Ali is a fundamentalist and he is a Muslim. A fundamentalist is someone who strictly adheres to something, so AhmedSyed, Is Ali a Muslim? Is it right for him to be a fundamentalist?

[MichelleSeeking]

In regards to the first post by John:

The Catholic Church hasn't split or divided. It's still whole. Sure, there are groups that have left the Church and started up their own false "Catholic" churches but the real Catholic Church is still whole.

What is the point of this topic anyway?? I tried to follow but I got lost.

[AhmedSyed]

<i>Originally posted by John 3:16 </i><b>AhmedSyed, you and Ali obviously disagree, Ali is a fundamentalist and he is a Muslim. A fundamentalist is someone who strictly adheres to something, so AhmedSyed, Is Ali a Muslim? Is it right for him to be a fundamentalist? </b>

What are you trying to say? A fundametalist is someone who strictly adheres to something, correct? So is it wrong to strictly adhere to Islam?

By the way, it depends on how the person follows Islam, we need not to be harsh nor too lenient.

Just follow Islam, and by they way, it isn't up to me to decide who is a muslim and who is not. Only Allah SWT decides this.

[Dan]

Bismillah

It seems that the point of this post is to talk ill of Islam yet glorify Christianity. Yet it is being done under the guise of being open minded and wanting a discourse with muslims. Are you getting all of your Islamic information from a Qur'an and hadith book that you have actually read or did you open up a packet that many Christian organizations put out that help you convince muslims that Christianity is the only way? Your questions seem to me to be very similar to questions that I have heard before from those not trying to understand Islam but rather trying to get muslims to embrace christianity. If you had truly read the Qur'an and hadith, you would have also come across many other verses and sayings about respect for your neighbor, controlling anger, love, and peace, and the lovely things that christianity has as well because there are the from the same Source. This is one of the reasons that I came to Islam is because of the continuation of The Message. If you want to learn about Islam, great. If not, let muslims who care about the message you want to preach come to websites for that purpose. The goals of this website are clearly stated. If your motives do not fall under one of these categories then is this the website for you? There are other forums where you can go argue and prove a point. Not here.

As for the discussion occuring about Islam from two nonmuslims, that is striking me as quite peculiar. Maybe some of your questions are not put in a manner in which people see fit to acknowledge them. For me, I do not sense any desire from either of you to actually learn but to just have someone agree with you. It is evident in the fact that you guys are supposed to be seeking the answers to your questions but you are the ones that will not stop to let people answer. I think you are just happy to have a buddy on the old "let's argue" train.

Like I said, are you hear to learn or just win some argument?

Here's the answer:

Islam cannot ever be 'modernized'. "This day I have perfected for you your religion" is what is said in the Qur'an. If some people do not want to follow certain aspects of the religion that is their choice. Why? No one on this board can answer that considering we are not those people. But Islam is done with the evolutionary phase. The prophet is dead and the ink is dry.

Now the topic is finished. At least I think that was what the topic was? Now you can prove that answers are what you are truly seeking and the thread is finished or you can continue with the game of "who's right?"

This game I sense that is being played is why this is the first and last post for me. When it comes down to it, we will all see, believers and nonblievers, who is truly right. When you die and have your soul ripped from your body, you will curse the day you were created and give all of this world including your mother to go back and have one more chance at true belief. Embrace Islam or go to eternal burning fire to have your skin seared off and replaced forever. Fully embrace Islam as it was revealed to us by the Prophet of God or be one of the losers on the Day of Judgement when the true reality decends upon us all.

May Allah protect us all by His Glorious Guiding Light of Islam from the excruciating punishment of the Hellfire. Ameen.

Alhamdulillah.

[Guest]

Dan, I have got to admire your conviction ! However, you do fall into the catgory of the christian equivalent of "bible basher" with all that fire and brimstone rhetoric towards the end:D

For me it's not about winning an argument it's about trying to figure out the true face of Islam and what it means to be a muslim.

I really can't see me being a muslim, way too much work. No alcohol, no sex, death to adulterers, I wouldn't last five minutes