Am I wrong for feeling like I do about this?? (USA + Israel)

[Dan]

As salam alaikum sister

I also live in the US and had to realize what this country is doing ALL OVER THE WORLD. Not only does our government give away, not millions, but billions to Isreal, they also support other harsh intolerant nations everywhere. Study some of the central and south american histories. The US gives three billion dollars to Isreal each year right off the top. Several other billion gets allocated through various programs. Their military might is from our military might. Apache helicopters are used to raid Palestinines' homes. Guess where they get them? The US arms Isreal with everything it needs.

Agreeably this is a pathetic state of affairs. But who is going to tell americans about it? CNN and FOX and AOL have vested interests in Isreal. Do you think they will rat them out? GE is one of the greatest weapons makers. GE also owns NBC. There are no media sources in this country not owned by one of these conglomerates. Where will our truth come from? As you alluded to and Malcolm X (who died a sunni muslim) said, the only thing that can save this nation and its people is Islam. You see the truth because Islam has helped you see.

May Allah reward you with blessings and mercy upon this trouble some path. I understand the betrayal that is felt. You go most of your life thinking and being taught that the US is the champion of peace and truth. It is hard to find out that it is rather the champion of money, business, and dunya.

As salam alaikum

[phatmonky]

<i>Originally posted by MichelleSeeking </i><b>I'm sorry PhatMonkey but I couldn't understand what you were saying.  Can you explain what you meant?  I'm a bit confused.</b>

Sorry!

You say Israel has nukes and Israel controls America - neither statement is proven.

I was also suggesting you take note of the bias found in 90% of this board. Like I said, they are as blind as you say you once were

[phatmonky]

Let's see if we can balance the scales around here a little

<i>Originally posted by MichelleSeeking </i><b>Here are some chilling facts that just made my eyes pop out of my head like this: :eek: </b>

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?

Answer: Israel.

Prove it!

Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?

Answer: Israel.

Which country refuses to sign the Chemical and biological weapons convention and bars inspectors of such?

Answer: Syria

Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?

Answer: Israel.

Syria and Lebanon make anyone think of anything??

Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?

Answer: Israel.

Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?

Answer: Israel.

Iran and Iraq

Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?

Answer: Israel.

Iraq

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?

Answer: Israel.

Iraq, Iran(hell, she was just a Canadian journalist!)

Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?

Answer: Israel.

Semantics on this one.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?

Answer: Israel.

Again, Semantics with an implied assumption. Let's not debate, let's just assume!

Q: In what country in the MiddleEast was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?

Answer: Israel.

Iraq

Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?

Answer: Israel.

Why don't we just continue taking thing out of context? The liberty was a full mistake - but how dare anyone acutally debate such a thing. Just print it as truth!

Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?

Answer: Israel.

Well, I'm sorry there aren't other Jonathan Pollards - makes it quite difficult to come up with an analogy for such specifics

Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?

Answer: Israel.

Again, only one Pollard

Q. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?

Answer: Israel

wooh! put on the blinders! How about "Which Middle eastern country allows terrorists against the US and Israel safe haven in their country?" - Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria.....

Q. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque?

Answer: Israel

Wow, almost equal to the suicide bomber who killed and injured dozens on the day before the holiest of jewish holidays - at a restaraunt owned by jews and arabs no less!

Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?

Answer: Israel.

hahaha, again, so lame - I wonder who is first?

Q. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?

Answer: Israel

Proof.

Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?

Answer: Israel.

According to most of the world, these weren't enough reasons to go into Iraq - but they are enough for Israel?

Q. Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-thind of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?

Answer: Israel

That is deceptive, as is the rest of this. A Large percentage of aid to Israel is from private citizens and a majority is in the form of loans.

Q. Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?

Answer: Israel

They do not receive them for free. Israel has repaid EVERY single loan the US has ever offered them. I am however disgusted by the turning over of such arms to China, our soon to be biggest problem. But hey, Clinton did it too

Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?

Answer: Israel

Can we not stick to the facts?? Maybe we should go after Engladn too, since Blair was here on moderation in Iraq

Q. Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because " We control America?"

Answer: Israel

Proof.

Q. What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.

Answer: Israel

What did Amnesty say about he gasing of Kurds, or the MILLIONS in Ruwanda that died....oh yeah,they didn't say anything. So much for unbias.

Q. Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?

Answer: Israel

A one ton smart bomb is a WMD now? What do we call MOAB then?

Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehichles, bulldozers, or tanks?

Answer: Israel

haha, the bias! This isn't even worth responding to.

Q. Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?

Answer: Israel

What is that I'm thikning? Oh yes, Arafat turned down the Camp David Accords when Sharon's predeseccor offered 90% of the asking!

Q. Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?

Answer: Israel

Political officials?! You mean leaders of Islamic Jihad and Hamas??

Q.. Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?

Answer: Israel

Which violates the Geneva convention? All of them!

Q: What country in the Middle East is the United States threatening to attack because of fear that it may be a threat to us and to our allies?

Answer: Iraq

Nothing like oversimplification to take control of an oversimplified audience.

Does anyone have a reliable internet web site or book that I can use to learn the true history of the new Israel? I want to find out exactly what took place behind the scenes that brought all of this about.

Thanks!

Find out what exactly? It's all common history - the problem is that too many people can only see one side.

[MichelleSeeking]

On the contrary PhatMonkey *I* never said, "Israel has nukes and Israel controls America". I had quoted another person and asked, "Is this true?" So I've neither said such a thing, nor have I decided that it is the gospel truth.

I'm seeking answers. Lots of answers. However, I am not demonizing the United States and cannonizing the Middle East. There is a LOT of wrong being done on both sides - but I deffinately am curious to know why Israel is doing what it is doing to the Palestinians - and why great and powerful countries like my own America don't seem to care. Am I missing something? Or are things as they really seem??

:confused:

[MichelleSeeking]

<b><i>"You go most of your life thinking and being taught that the US is the champion of peace and truth. It is hard to find out that it is rather the champion of money, business, and dunya."</i> </b>

**Sigh**

That's kind of how I feel and that's why I'm asking some reallllly tough questions here. I mean, the media does give me a lot of information and I'm greatful for that - but it also leaves a lot untold.

I'm a very confused American right now. My country IS supposed to be the champion of peace - but then we seem to blatantly ignore what Israel and China and other countries are doing to people. To be 100% honest I haven't been given a good solid reason for why Israel has taken all of that Palestinian land. I hear tall tales like, "No one lived on that land" and find out: that is not true! I hear stories about Palestinians being forced out of their own homes, off of their own land, and see no justice for such action. Their water gets turned off, their electricity gets turned off, children throwing rocks get shot dead by Israeli soldiers. I watched on tv as a Palestinian child was shot DEAD as he and his father were pressed against a wall while caught in the middle of a firefight. Hello!

Now there is a huge wall being built - which totally reminds me of the Berlin Wall. I was raised to see the Berlin Wall as the Great Wall of Evil, the personification of opression. Didn't we cheer and cry and celebrate when "the Wall came down"? So why are we sitting by in silence as another wall goes up???

Why are these things going unchecked? Why doesn't America, the Champion of Peace, do anything about it? Why are we pumping money and wepons into Israel instead? Why does our media keep half of the story hidden under a rock? How can we Americans make an honest assesment of the situation under such circumstances?

America does interesting things like invade Iraq because Saddam Hussien is supposedly this evil bad guy - while Israel isn't? I'm supposed to look at Saddam Hussein's acts as "evil" but look at Israel's acts as "not evil"?

I can turn on TV and watch show after show that goes into great and gory detail about the evil things that Saddam and his sons wrought upon the Iraqi people - but there's not a single word about the evils wrought upon Palestinians. Why is that? I can learn allll about Hitler and the Evil Nazis but uh...where are the shows about the modern Israel being created? It was "wrong" for Hitler to invade Dutch, French, and Belgian land but it "wasn't wrong" for people to invade Palestinian land? It was "wrong" for Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait but it's "not wrong" for Israel to continue invading Palestinian land?

Does anyone see my point here??????

And then we watch as after the war with Iraq Dick Chaney gets the bid for oil in Iraq. Hmmmmmm...kinda makes you wonder. Kinda makes you REALLY wonder, doesn't it? So people shouldn't question why I'm here saying, "What's going on?" and thinking that I'm demonizing America. How can I be wrong for questioning such conflicting things? Where are the answers? I'm certainly not getting any from my OWN countrymen - except the rare few that are informed and are able to let me in on what the media keeps under wraps. But then I'm accused of listening to biased opinions. So let me get this straight: the American side of the story isn't biased while the Middle Eastern side of the story is biased...?

If we have to hold a country accountable for one thing then why don't we hold another country accountable for the same thing?

PhatMonkey the list you made was quite impressive. However, why do we hold the other countries accountable for the same things that Israel is allowed to get away with? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Example:

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?

Answer: Israel.

Iran and Iraq <--- (supplied by PhatMonkey)

Question: If Iran and Iraq do this, it's bad but if Israel does this, it's ok? Is that the point here? We KNOW Iran and Iraq have done these things and look: they are considered BAD for doing so. We take action against them.

Why haven't we taken action against Israel for the same crimes?? Why are some countries punished because they commit these crimes and other countries rewarded with money and wepons even though they commit the same crimes?

That's the whole point of this thread: to find out why such contradictions exist.

[SisterJennifer]

Hi Michelle,

It's an excellent post you have just written. I was just reading over with my husband and we were discussing the thought process that starts taking place for us Americans when you realize what really is happening in this world. It kind of makes you sick. There are so many "WHYS." Another thing I was wondering while reading your post was that maybe a big part of the problem is that race and religion become factors in prejudging people, and a sense of humanity is lost.

Take care,

Jennifer

[Muslimah]

<i>Originally posted by MichelleSeeking </i>[

PhatMonkey the list you made was quite impressive. However, why do we hold the other countries accountable for the same things that Israel is allowed to get away with? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Example:

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?

Answer: Israel.

Iran and Iraq <--- (supplied by PhatMonkey)

Question: If Iran and Iraq do this, it's bad but if Israel does this, it's ok? Is that the point here? We KNOW Iran and Iraq have done [/b]

As Salam a`alaman itaba`alhoda

Michelle u just made THE point.

[phatmonky]

<i>Originally posted by MichelleSeeking </i>PhatMonkey the list you made was quite impressive. However, why do we hold the other countries accountable for the same things that Israel is allowed to get away with? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Notice the first thing I said when I started that post - "Let's even the scales here" - my point was to simply show the bias nature of the Author. NOWHERE did I say that Israel was okay to do the same things, so don't put words in my mouth.

To say one side or another is the problem is pure stupidity and bias, constantly showed on both sides across the world.

Sharon is hated because he is seen as a butcher by the Arabs. Arafat is worth over 300 million, while his people starve and live in run down cities. There is not a right and wrong. There is only one path to peace in the region.

Israel is seen as the aggressor because they are better funded, but it was not Israel that broke the ceasefire on the recent roadmap to peace.

I fully support an independent Palestinian state. I fully support harsh consequences to Israel on things like selling the Chinese weapons. I fully support the US's decision to not deal with Arafat after failed talks over and over. Arafat won't, or can't, control his own people - either way, he is worthless as a leader.

Until the Palestinians police their own, it is impossible for the US to tell Israel to not retaliate. Abbas was the closest thing to hope yet, and once again, Arafat wants to be the one calling shots. Arafat is a major problem, and maybe when the old man dies, he'll be replaced with someone willing to tackle the internal problems of Palestine.

We can sit all day and do the historical blame game, but Israel agreed to a ceasefire recently, while Hamas and Islamic Jihad refused. Almost 3 months went by when a bomb went off in Israel. The ironic thing is, at the same time this happened, the US Congress were discussing penalties for Israel if they continue their security fence. That bombing stopped those talks and forced Israel to retaliate. The US can tell ISrael what to do, but someone needs to be telling the Palestinians.

[phatmonky]

<i>Originally posted by MichelleSeeking </i>1>To be 100% honest I haven't been given a good solid reason for why Israel has taken all of that Palestinian land. I hear tall tales like, "No one lived on that land" and find out: that is not true!

2> So why are we sitting by in silence as another wall goes up???

3>Why are these things going unchecked?

4> Why doesn't America, the Champion of Peace, do anything about it?

5>Why are we pumping money and wepons into Israel instead? 6>Why does our media keep half of the story hidden under a rock?

7> How can we Americans make an honest assesment of the situation under such circumstances?

8>America does interesting things like invade Iraq because Saddam Hussien is supposedly this evil bad guy - while Israel isn't?

9> I'm supposed to look at Saddam Hussein's acts as "evil" but look at Israel's acts as "not evil"?

10>I can turn on TV and watch show after show that goes into great and gory detail about the evil things that Saddam and his sons wrought upon the Iraqi people - but there's not a single word about the evils wrought upon Palestinians. Why is that?

11> I can learn allll about Hitler and the Evil Nazis but uh...where are the shows about the modern Israel being created?

12>It was "wrong" for Hitler to invade Dutch, French, and Belgian land but it "wasn't wrong" for people to invade Palestinian land?

13>It was "wrong" for Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait but it's "not wrong" for Israel to continue invading Palestinian land?

14>Does anyone see my point here??????

15>And then we watch as after the war with Iraq Dick Chaney gets the bid for oil in Iraq. Hmmmmmm...kinda makes you wonder.

16> Kinda makes you REALLY wonder, doesn't it?

17> So people shouldn't question why I'm here saying, "What's going on?" and thinking that I'm demonizing America.

18>How can I be wrong for questioning such conflicting things? Where are the answers?

19> I'm certainly not getting any from my OWN countrymen - except the rare few that are informed and are able to let me in on what the media keeps under wraps.

20> But then I'm accused of listening to biased opinions.

21> So let me get this straight: the American side of the story isn't biased while the Middle Eastern side of the story is biased...?

22>If we have to hold a country accountable for one thing then why don't we hold another country accountable for the same thing?

My oh my, where to begin..........

1>They haven't taken it all - the reason Israel is in the area is two fold. Jewish funds were buying the hell out of the area before the war of 1967. This was seen as a zionist movement, but let's be honest here. It was totally legal and the Palestinians were selling it. Then the war of 1967 happend (read about it yoruself, I'm not going to give you a whole history lesson). Gaza and the West Bank became spoils of war - This is the by the law reasons. By the letter of the law, Israel is entitled to the land. But by the letter of the law a lot of things would happen that shouldn't. Having land legally, but with other people on it legally is a dirty situation. What do you do with them? Well, Israel kept building settlements on to the areas. During all this fighting from both sides has continued and escalated into the crap it is today. How it started is of no consequence, that is unless we want to go by the letter of the law and let ISrael have the land, but leave hte Palestinians on it - not a very good solution

2>If you'd take the time to read and educate yoruself, you'd know that with the roadmap to peace, we require Israel to stop the wall. Near the end of the 3 month ceasefire we were looking at punishments for the continued building. But now the peace process has been derailed.

3>Like I said, they aren't.

4>Same question.

5>Israel is the reason that we knew half of what the USSR was doing in the middle east. Modern Israel is there because of the US and England. Stripping Israel down would be a death wish as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq decided to reinact the 7 days war,but hopefully with a different outcome this time. Israel is armed for it's own protection, but even I fully see the misuse in some areas with such privelages. As for money, do keep in mind what I said about loans. For the value of Israel, it does not cost that much to support her......investment vs. return - when Israel makes too much trouble, she'll be on her own. Right now though, there is still hope in my mind that there cna be peace.

6>Because that's not what people want to hear, and because we can more easily empathize with a people needing to defend themselves against terrorist attacks. The media has never been shy about saying that Israel has attacked somewhere - It simply doesn't put the negative conotation on it that you will find in European countries. I personally wish the news was more like this on all fronts - report the events, let the view make up their mind.

7>IF you feel you are being cheated, you have the internet, go read!! There are a million and one news sites and many are in other parts of the world.

8>Saddam is/was a horrible guy. Israel needs to have limits set, and I support them - but how do you tell someone who called a ceasefire not to retaliate to a bomb in their city?

9>Look at them however you'd like, I'm not telling you what to think.

10>People are tired of it - we've been trying actively to create a Palestinian state for the last 15 years. During Clinton's presidency there was nothing but Arafat on TV

11>History Channel - there's things on the middle east, and in specific Israel/Palestine all the time.

12>Question with Assumption - slow down there.

13>slow down. You're assuming.

14>Yes, you need to go read and educate yourself.

15>Oh jeez, you pull that? Look, Dick Cheney, as is standard, has a blind trust with his businesses. He stepped down from Halliburton and all his assets have a power of attorney on them to prevent a conflict of interest - NOW, but Cheney you are thiknign Halliburton. If Cheney was handing over jobs to the company he used to work for, why did Halliburton drop out of the bidding for the ONLY large oil contract to come out of Iraq?

As for smaller jobs Halliburton may have picked up in Iraq - there is a reason they are one of the largest companies in the world. They are the best at what they do.

16>No, because you are assuming something that didn't happen.

17> You shouldn't demonize the USA. We have done more good than could possibly be imagined - should you question things? Absolutely! Such an act is why the US is great and the only way you ever learn anything!

18>Who said you were wrong for questioning? I'm trying to give you some of them

19>Why don't you quit looking to the blind to teach you to see? Personal responsibility will go a long way - educate yourself. The internet is an amazing thing.

20>There's bias everywhere. You must learn to look at both sides and make up your own mind.

21>Who said that?

22>Well, things like the NPT are only valid if you are a signee. Treaty's, conventions, etc. MEan you agree. Therefore, that is a situation in which you can hold two countries accountable in different ways. Or look to N Korea. They should be attacked by the history of Russia/Chechnya, or USA/ Iraq - why aren't we? Because while it would be nice to rid the world of such a man, it's not worth the 2+ million that would die in S Korea as a result. No two things are exact, no matter how much they are. Double standards do exist, and should be handled, but don't believe there's a great parallel just because someone says there is.

[Ahmed Abdullah]

<i>Originally posted by phatmonky </i><b></b>

Israel is seen as the aggressor because they are better funded, but it was not Israel that broke the ceasefire on the recent roadmap to peace.

.

This is not true. If you really know what has been going on there, you would have known that the Israelis never stopped their curfews, roadblocks, raids of the villages and all the other things they were doing before this so called roadmap to peace. I know this doesnt give the Palestinians the right to do the things they do either. Both sides are guilty, but the real truth is that the Palestitians were not the first to strike. I know this for a fact from watching video from BBC, and other reliable sources. Seek the truth and ye shall find. This stuff wasnt shown here in the US TV.

As you stated in the next post of yours, that Michelle should read and educate herself, I would suggest the same for you. The internet is an amazing thing, but you must be very careful of the websites you visit. Not all are true to either side of this conflict.

Yes by all means read some History of that region. Go back further than 1967 though.