Ask a Shia

[Karbala]

Well, let me explain to your further, first off, your argument cannt stand because as you yourself explained, Muta does not involve any financial obligations on the husband. Further it might apply even without sexual contact. Thus, building on the word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ which establishes a rule of paying a deffered dowry cannt be valid here.

When did I say there are no financial obligations on the husband? The husband is obliged to pay the woman a dowry. I think I have mentioned this before.


Muta' can be contracted without any sexual contact involved, infact in Shi'i fiqh the same applies to Permanent marriage as well. i don't see what this has to do with verse 4:24.


4:24 does not mention divorce at all.


Doesn't Al-hayy mean the ever living? I havent heard of the All-Shy before.


Allahs language in the Quran does vary according to context but it is very precise as well. When talking about the context of consummation of marriage Allah uses the word تَمَسُّوهُنَّ in 2:236, 2:237 and 33:49. I am not aware of any other word used in the Quran to describe the consummation, maybe you can show me?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Dr. Karbala, I have fever 39 C nothing breaks it Sobhan Allah Alhamdulelah, I m holding on, Insh aAllah this will go away with my sins.

[Karbala]

Bismillah
Dr. Karbala, I have fever 39 C nothing breaks it Sobhan Allah Alhamdulelah, I m holding on, Insh aAllah this will go away with my sins.

I pray you get well. Take plenty of rest and fluids.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Alhamdulelah fever finally broke. Still on fluids and rest though.


Bismillah


I thought to elaborate on a separate post to make it easier for one who reads Karbala.


Let me Insh a Allah help some more to clear the confusion


Please note that we cannt take Ayahs out of context or outside of the interrelated texture. This whole Surat addresses several issues related to women and in particular marriage starting from what to do with orphan girls when they are still under the custody of a man who might want to use her and marry her to take her money or take advantage of her position to save himself from giving her financial rights. But bear with me, because this will be a bit long.


Let us just get back few Ayahs and see how did this Ayah come into sequence (Quran 4:19-25):


<b></b>


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُواْ النِّسَاء كَرْهًا وَلاَ تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُواْ بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيراً[/size]


O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the bridal money you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.


In this Ayah Allah Is warning men against forcing to take the money of women who are widowed, or forcing them to marry a man who is responsible about her seeking to take her money as this situation was recurrent.


<b>وَإِنْ أَرَدتُّمُ اسْتِبْدَالَ زَوْجٍ مَّكَانَ زَوْجٍ وَآتَيْتُمْ إِحْدَاهُنَّ قِنطَارًا فَلاَ تَأْخُذُواْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا أَتَأْخُذُونَهُ بُهْتَاناً وَإِثْماً مُّبِيناً</b>


But if you intend to replace a wife by another and you have given one of them a great amount as bridal money, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin?


Here is a ruling in terms of taking back the gift a man gave upon marriage in case he divorces the woman.


<b>وَكَيْفَ تَأْخُذُونَهُ وَقَدْ أَفْضَى بَعْضُكُمْ إِلَى بَعْضٍ وَأَخَذْنَ مِنكُم مِّيثَاقًا غَلِيظًا</b>


And how could you take it (back) while you have gone in unto each other, and they have taken from you a firm and strong covenant?


Note that here too Allah Used a totally different word to refer to sexual intercourse which is afda in order to emphasis that those rules are relevant to marriage after consummation. It builds on the previous warning even in a inquisitive form of language to indicate impossibility.


<b>وَلاَ تَنكِحُواْ مَا نَكَحَ آبَاؤُكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا قَدْ سَلَفَ إِنَّهُ كَانَ فَاحِشَةً وَمَقْتًا وَسَاء سَبِيلاً</b>


And marry not women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; indeed it was shameful and most hateful, and an evil way.


Here is what you always bring as argument that Allah Used tankehu. True, but as you have noted Allah Is using multiple forms to refer to the same meaning specially that here Allah is referring to even just concluding a marriage contract without consummation. In other words, Allah Is forbidding for a man to conclude a marriage contract with his step mother.


The following Ayah will clarify what I just said further:


<b>حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمْ أُمَّهَاتُكُمْ وَبَنَاتُكُمْ وَأَخَوَاتُكُمْ وَعَمَّاتُكُمْ وَخَالاَتُكُمْ وَبَنَاتُ الأَخِ وَبَنَاتُ الأُخْتِ وَأُمَّهَاتُكُمُ اللاَّتِي أَرْضَعْنَكُمْ وَأَخَوَاتُكُم مِّنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَأُمَّهَاتُ نِسَآئِكُمْ وَرَبَائِبُكُمُ اللاَّتِي فِي حُجُورِكُم مِّن نِّسَآئِكُمُ اللاَّتِي دَخَلْتُم بِهِنَّ فَإِن لَّمْ تَكُونُواْ دَخَلْتُم بِهِنَّ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَحَلاَئِلُ أَبْنَائِكُمُ الَّذِينَ مِنْ أَصْلاَبِكُمْ وَأَن تَجْمَعُواْ بَيْنَ الأُخْتَيْنِ إَلاَّ مَا قَدْ سَلَفَ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا</b>


Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Note that we are here talking about marriage, this batch of Ayahs is addressing the issue of marriage. Again to refer to consummation of marriage Allah Used dakhltum behin. And in this Ayah Allah Is identifying categories of women with whom a man can not be married. Then Allah Continues in the following Ayah that is why it started with wa (and) it means that married women (muhsanat) can not be married to. Then it says other wise, it is lawful for you to marry other women, using your money, who do not fall under any of the above mentioned categories and it stresses that they must receive their due amount of money (aujurhun).


Before I continue I need to correct something (astaghferullah), seems the fever was approaching. I said that the word estamta`umt behin refers to consummation of marriage. No sorry, this is a wrong understanding, otherwise, how come Allah in Surat Baqarah in the two Ayah I quoted, is indicating that those who are divorced before being touched are eligible to money for estimtaa. The estimtaa here (having pleasure) is even by just engagement, company, time spent. It is as I explained above a form of consolation for the woman.


Here is the issue that is creating controversy. True as you stated that the Ayah in Surat Baqarah with the word mateouhun refers to financial support, but it serves other meanings as well. As in one of them it refers to women who are divorced before marriage consummation and were not promised for a faridah (dowry), they are entitled for a mutaa, money in return for having pleasure with the woman. In other words, being engaged to her, spending time with her. That is why here Allah Says those with whom you had pleasure, any type of pleasure including even time and company. Thus, your explanation confirms even that this word here can never refer to Mutaa marriage, because it is part and parcel of this interrelated texture indicating rulings of marriage one after the other. And as you saw how many synonyms Allah Used to refer to sexual intercourse.


<b>وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ كِتَابَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاء ذَلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا</b>


Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with bridal money from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their bridal money as prescribed; but if after a bridal money is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.


As I indicated above, in continuation to which women are unmarriageable and which are marriageable. It is only harmonious to put a general rule then of giving them their due financial rights in return for what a man obtained with them of pleasure. Not legalizing Muta marriage. In case Allah Who is Precise as you just stated and as we all know Willed to legalize Muta marriage, and since Muta marriage has some different rulings from conventional marriage, Allah Would have actually Put this clearly in a separate text in order to clearly detail those rules specially that this type of marriage is termed, contract is automatically dissolved,..etc. But to put it is this context that is harmonious with the rest of the preceding and succeeding Ayahs, it is then part and parcel of the full context of marriage setting the rulings. It is totally illogical to say that with only a word, just one word, without any details, specifications, rulings, descriptions, that Allah Legalizes an issue. Because reading it in this context makes it as I said part of the full batch of marital and divorce rulings including inheritance and as you explained, in case of Muta the couple are not entitled for inheritance of one another, this should have been clearly prescribed, don’t you think so? And sorry, I got confused, you said dowry and everything is applied, but she is not entitled for subsistence, this should have been also mentioned. Just placing one word in the middle that builds on other Ayahs does not logically serve the meaning to legalize a totally different type of marriage that involves different fiqh.


The following Ayah will confirm the explanation that by the Support of Allah I introduced here:


<b>وَمَن لَّمْ يَسْتَطِعْ مِنكُمْ طَوْلاً أَن يَنكِحَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ فَمِن مِّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُم مِّن فَتَيَاتِكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِكُمْ بَعْضُكُم مِّن بَعْضٍ فَانكِحُوهُنَّ بِإِذْنِ أَهْلِهِنَّ وَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ مُحْصَنَاتٍ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحَاتٍ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ فَإِذَا أُحْصِنَّ فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ خَشِيَ الْعَنَتَ مِنْكُمْ وَأَن تَصْبِرُواْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِي</b>مٌ


And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians or masters) and give them their bridal money according to what is reasonable; they (the above said captive and slave-girls) should be chaste, not adulterous, nor taking boy-friends. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit illegal sexual intercourse, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women. This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; but it is better for you that you practise self restraint, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.


In this Ayah, Allah Is Giving men who cannt afford marrying Muhsanat believing women (free) an alternative of marrying their right hand possession with the permission of their parents. If the preceding Ayah as you argued was with one word legalizing Muta, Allah Wouldn’t Have continued talking about an alternative to those who cannt afford marriage giving them other options. Wallahu a`lam


Wallahu a`lam

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Regarding Al Hayeyy it is different from Al Hay.


Al Hay is All Living. Hayeyy is All Shy. When we made dua we Say that O Allah You Are Hayeyyun Kareem Tastahy an Tarud Al Abd sifr al Yadain (empty handed).


O Allah You Are All Shy and Gracious that You Are Shy to return the devotee empty handed.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom all


As I indicated above, that the objective of this thread is not merely to discuss with one person, but rather to compile as much relevant info as possible to help those who are in a quest to find proper answers, not only proper, but Insh a Allah well searched with the support of Allah.


As the previous post explained how Mutaa is not all what the Shia created thru linguist and primarily Quran sources.


Here I like to address an essential point in establishing the Shia belief. They lay much emphais on the Ahul Bayt issue and who are they.


According to Karbala in post # 145, he explained to me how they believe that Fatima may Allah be pleased with her was the only daughter of the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Well, here is what I found.


Sobhan Allah after one year, I was reading Quran and stopped at an Ayah that solves this issue. However, let me first clarify an important point, from my observation, Shia scholars designed the beliefs that are part and parcel of Shia sect in a way that serves a totally political purpose. In some ahadeeth, they interpreted them in a way just to discredit Aaesh and in turn of course discredit Abu Bakr making his Khilafa illegitimate. Any way, let me focus on this point, when Karbala explained in post #145, that according to Shia belief, the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam had only Fatima as a daughter and Ruqayyah, Umm Kulthoom and Zaynab are either Khajia's daughters from a previous marriage or her sister's. In all cases, such a status would have them carry an adjective of Rabaeb (wife's daughters whom a husband is raising) as in Quran 4:23:


"Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful."


The underlined part is what is called in Arabic Rabaeb and the best translation to the succeeding sentence is born of your wives with whom you consummated the marriage (had a sexual intercourse). Now as Allah Is really precise, accurate and certainly All Knowing, Allah Knew that there will be a sect called Shia of whom scholars would invent this myth of the prophet's daughters just to serve the purpose of restricting Ahl Bayt to Fatima, Ali, Hassan and Hussain may Allah be pleased with all of them. In an effort to reply to Karbala, I was taking the hard method of research and tried to check the birth date of each of them. While Allah Made it very easy for me and others as it is clearly stated in Quran, and I only realized it last week Sobhan Allah, although I read it many many times. But this is the glory of Quran, each time you read, you discover new things. We always have to unearth Quran. To stay on topic, reading the same Surat.of Al Ahzab, Allah Say:


" O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 33:59).


As clearly stated, Allah specifically commanded the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam to instruct his wives, and daughters using plural form, this is not haphazard of course. In case what the Shia scholars assumed, that he only had Fatima and others were his wife's daughters, Allah would Say your daughter and Rabaebuka (step daughters) in order to make this clear. However, stating wives and daughters leaves no doubt that all of them were his daughters and not just Fatima. But again for creating a proper foundation to their belief, Shia scholars ignored this clear Ayah and interpreted Quran in a manner that serves their aim.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


To continue filling the gaps here, as for the infamous hadeethul kisaa which forms a no less essential foundation of the Shia belief in identifying Ahul Bayt.and in turn who is Ma`soum. In the hadeeth, Umm Salama attempted to enter into the Kisaa, but the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam stopped her saying you are on Khair (you are already in a good status). At the time I was discussing this with Karbala, I stopped to avoid making preference between people with whom we can not even compare. From post # 122 to like 130, hadeethu l kisaa is deeply discussed in an effort from Karbala to prove how the wives of the Messenger salla alyhee wa sallam and may Allah be pleased with all of them are execluded from Ayah 33:33 although as explained, it falls well within a set of Ayahs addressing them. In fact, the response falls within the hadeeth itself. By stopping Umm Salama from coming under the kisaa with Fatima, Ali, Hassan and Hussain may Allah be pleased with them and the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam telling her you are on good, it confirms that she is already covered by this merit by virtue of the Ayah and thus, does not need to join them now, as at this point the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam aimed to include Fatima and her family into this Divine promise of purification and not otherwise. In other words, the Ayah grants the wives Divine purification and the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam desired the same for Fatima and her family may Allah be pleased with them all, thus, he includes them in his household under the kisaa. But Sobhan Allah, Shia scholars go against all reasoning and twist facts just to establish a different fact.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Karbala,


Well I still have some points to disucuss, believe it or not, just wanted to give u a break.


Karbala, you stated on an earlier post that you believe that Quran was revealed on its present form and that no distortion has been made upon our holy book, no omission or additions. No tahreef, am I not correct?


I have an important question, under such conditions, what is your position of the alleged Surah entitled Al Welyaha that stands as an argument for granting Ali may Allah be pleased with him and (Karramallhu wajhu=may Allah Honor his face) rank of Walayah?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Just to continue enlighting people on some major distortions in the Shiaa belief, earlier on this same thread, Karbala denied that people have to go for Haj to Najaf or Karbala and he denied learning that they hold, according to Shiaa scholars, a higher position than Kaaba. Well, please review this link:


http://www.ziaraat.org/articles/iraq-guide.php


It highlights the status of Najaf calling those who visit as performing piligrimage


I also have a video of a lecture of Sheikh Shirazi but it is in Arabic, when he openly stated that Karbala shall turn into the better part of Jannah even better than Kabaa.


I have a lot to say, and Insh a Allah Karbala come back may be he can explain!!!!

[Muslimah]

Bismillah

I consider this thread one of the important thread on this board, and regardless of someone making a reply or not, In sh a Allah, as much as possible I will continue filling up here, as this should turn into an an attempt of accumulating proper knowledge to serve whoever needs to understand, while shall continue to generate good deeds for all Muslims who took part on this thread even after their death.

One of the main ground Shia use in verifying their belief, is hadeethu l kissa, as brother Karbala actually confirmed it in one of the earlier posts. This hadeeth stands as cornerstone for the position they lend Fatima, Ali (Karramallahu wajhu: may Allah Honour his face), Hassan and Hussain may Allah be pleased with all of them. They use the hadeeth for arguing that only those four beloved people are aalu bayt, no one else, and they are fallible..etc.

Here is the hadeeth:

'A'isha reported
that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: {Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)} (reported by Muslim)

How can they resolve then that they discredit our beloved mother Ummel Moemneen Aesha, they actually do not take hadeeth narrated by her. But they take this one?? do they pick and choose??? not only take it, it serves as an essential argument, foundation..etc for an important component of their belief.