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The Arabic Bible!!!
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04-25-2009, 06:42 AM
Peace Wael, By comparing what I say to Scripture. The thing about false teachers, they'll fall short of the Scriptures every time. So if you study to show yourself approved unto God like the Scriptures command, you'll be able to discern the real from the fake beyond a shadow of doubt. Shamms 
04-25-2009, 04:15 PM
Hi again Shamms, I dont see that at all. Just look at the other thread where we discuss the verse you are using in your sig. The fact is that Muslims DO believe in the coming of Christ in bodily form as Wael and I have pointed out yet you use this same verse to say we are false teachers. And this happens by pulling 'evidence' from here and there to suit your whim. And this is the approach that seems to be used by all denominations of Christianity. And all of them are different. So as far as finding the real from the fake beyond a shadow of a doubt as you say, well, I just think that is not realistic. It all makes for very pretty speech, unfortunately it seems there just isnt any realism behind it. Maybe it all boils down to what the individual chooses to believe? Anyway, take care
04-25-2009, 09:42 PM
Peace SisterJennifer, It isn't my "whim" that suited, scripture interprets scripture. That's how you can discern the true from the false. If you believed Jesus Christ came in bodily form (written by John) then you would also believe that Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh (also written by John), and you would further believe that the Word is God (also written by John). Scripture links to Scripture from beginning to end. An individual cannot "choose" what to believe. Scripture says you cannot serve two masters, you either have obediance unto righteousness, or you obey sin unto death. I know you don't understand, it has not been given to you to understand: Matthew 13:11-14 (11) And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. (12) For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. (13) This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because having the power of seeing, they do not see; and having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. (14) In them indeed is the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.
04-26-2009, 11:35 AM
Quote:Peace SisterJennifer, Thanks for your reply Shamms, but it is clear that you dont understand as well: Muslims believe in the word of CHRIST, not the words of John, the words of Matthew, and so on....... Just out of curiosity, is this the same logic that is applied which makes Christians feel they no longer need to keep the law? Probably that is off topic, but I'm interested to know. or does your brand of Christianity keep the law?
04-27-2009, 01:23 PM
SisterJennifer, Actually Muslims pick and choose what words of Jesus Christ they want to follow. Jesus said: John 14:6 (6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. Jesus commanded when we pray to say: Matthew 6:9 (9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Jesus commanded his disciples: Matthew 5:43-44 (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Wael said it is impossible to do as Jesus commanded, You (collectively) do not call God your Father (another command), and you do not believe Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. You say you don't believe in the words of John or any of the other companions of Jesus but again, Jesus, as recorded by Mark and John said: Mark 16:15-16 (15) And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature [of the whole human race]. (16) He who believes [who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] and is baptized will be saved [from the penalty of eternal death]; but he who does not believe [who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] will be condemned. John 13:34-35 (34) I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another. (35) By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves]. We are to believe the companions of Jesus Christ because they speak by His authority. But I'm sure you'll attempt to justify your lack of obedience to these words in some way. As far as the Law is concerned, Christians do indeed follow the law, again the words of Jesus teach us: Matthew 22:34-40 (34) Now when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced (muzzled) the Sadducees, they gathered together. (35) And one of their number, a lawyer, asked Him a question to test Him. (36) Teacher, which kind of commandment is great and important (the principal kind) in the Law? [some commandments are light--which are heavy?] (37) And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). (38) This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. (39) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. (40) These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets. The Christian that loves God with all their heart, soul, mind (intellect) AND loves his neighbor like he does himself is indeed following the law.
04-27-2009, 02:38 PM
Quote:] Who is picking and choosing? Just open the Bible and read about the law and then we can talk in this subject. But I dont see it as you do, that Muslims pick and choose what to believe from Christ. This is the difference of belief I was discussing. While your book was recorded by men, ours was not. I know you probably dont believe that but that is the way I see it. I do think it is ironic though that you would make that accusation and then claim to be following the law. It seems to make it more clear to me that I was correct to assume that Christians use the bible to pull together any theory to suit their individual whims. Anyway, thanks for your input. 
04-28-2009, 05:51 AM
Bismillah Actually Shamms to your surprise, this is what Quran say: "Remember) when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings <b>of a Word from Him</b>, his name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah." (Quran 3:45) As for (6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. Here is what Allah Say that Jesus communicated to his followers: ""Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world)." (Quran 5:114) And will make him [Jesus] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.*And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.*Truly! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path.*Then when Jesus came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allah's Cause?" The disciples said: "We are the helpers of Allah; we believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims." (Quran:3:49-52) As you can see Shamms, if in the bible he says no one comes to the father (astaghferullah) but thru me, the Quran clearly states that he called his people to believe in Allah and since he is the caller, people had to believe in him as a Messenger, communicator of the message to attain faith in Allah. Can you see the point. " Quote:If you believed Jesus Christ came in bodily form (written by John) then you would also believe that Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh (also written by John), <b></b>and you would further believe that the Word is God (also written by John). Scripture links to Scripture from beginning to end. 
04-28-2009, 07:59 AM
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum. <b>'AlShamms' </b> Quote:I know <b>you don't understand</b> In that same chapter of Mathew 13, Jesus told his disciples that <b>MANY</b> Prophets and righteous people have desired to <i>SEE THOSE THINGS </i>s and yet they were not able to see them, and they wished to <i>HEAR THOSE THINGS </i>but they did not hear them, So Alhamdulelah, we are just like those Prophets and righteous people. BUT...the disciples could not understand the core belief of today's form of Christianity, and that is <b>the death and resurrection of their LORD. </b> Luke told us (of course with the help of the holy ghost as you believe) that the chosen 12 disciples <b>understand NOTHING about the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus Christ</b>, and yet you are claiming to be guided by the holy ghost on understanding that which Jesus' chosen onse could not comprehend. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the son of man will be fulfilled, he will be handed over to the Gentiles, they will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him, and kill him and on the third day he will rise again. <b>THE DISCIPLES DID NOT UNDERSTANT ANY OF THIS, ITS MEANING WAS HIDDEN FROM THEM AND THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.</b> Luke 18:31-34 I really don't know what was so vague in the above verse that makes them <b>DO NOT UNDERSTAND</b>? Now you come and tell us that you are better that Jesus' disciples by understanding that which they did not. Quote:Actually Muslims pick and choose what words of Jesus Christ they want to follow. Jesus said: He also said earlier in that same chapter that he is going to prepare a dwelling place for his followers, and so Jesus was the <b>way</b> to these places which were with God, it doesn't mean 'worship Jesus in order to be saved'. Quote:Wael said it is impossible to do as Jesus commanded, You (collectively) do not call God your Father (another command), and you do not believe Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. I repeat, you can't love your enemy (<b>i.e. you can't love a person who raped your sister, kill your parent, spit on your Bible, molested your daughter, burn your Church, etc etc</b>) and if you love them then you must be mentally sick. Quote:We are to believe the companions of Jesus Christ because they speak by His authority. But I'm sure you'll attempt to justify your lack of obedience to these words in some way. We would love to see the words of Jesus'companions, however the words of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are not the original words of Jesus' disciples and if you wish, I can quote you what Christian scholars have said about those 4 gospels attributed to Jesus' disciples to see for yourself that they are fabricated and has nothing to do with the truth. Salam Wael.
05-03-2009, 03:35 PM
Wael, By mentioning Matthew 13:17, are you likening the muslim to these righteous men who desired to see the coming of the Messiah? If that is so, where is your cross? Matthew 16:24 (24) Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to be My disciple, let him deny himself [disregard, lose sight of, and forget himself and his own interests] and take up his cross and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying, also]. "BUT...the disciples could not understand the core belief of today's form of Christianity, and that is the death and resurrection of their LORD." And now you twist the Scripture to fit your own desire. That is not what that verse is speaking about. It's talking about those righteous men who lived before; Abraham, Solomon, David, Isaiah, who longed to see the coming of the Messiah. What was mentioned in Luke, was written before Acts 2, and when the Holy Spirit was given they then understood clearly why Jesus was crucified. So yes, I understand, and they understand too. They didn't understand because in their misunderstanding of prophecy, given to them by the Pharisees, they were looking for a warrior king like David. They did not understand his first coming to be that of a sacrifice. No, I'm not better, I have the advantage of being able to read what they've written AFTER the Holy Spirit was given to them and they understood. I didn't say anything about worshiping Jesus, only that Jesus is the only way, only truth, and only way to eternal life with the Father. Wael, and as said in the other thread, true, you wouldn't have affection for that person, but if that person, at the time they were near you had a need, we, as followers of Jesus Christ, are commanded to meet that need. It has nothing to do with mental illness, like I said, it's about showing undeserved mercy and compassion, the same that was shown for us. As far as their words not being original....that is something I will not accept. And no, I wouldn't take the word of so-called scholars as proof. Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum. <b>'AlShamms'</b> Quote:By mentioning Matthew 13:17, are you likening the muslim to these righteous men who desired to see the coming of the Messiah? If that is so, where is your cross? It was you who bring Matthew 13 to the picture in an attempt to prove to us that "<i>we do not understand</i>" because "<i>it was not given to us to understand</i>", and so I just discovered that not only Muslims who don't understand but even the Prophets and righteous people (<i>i.e. because it was not given to them to understand</i>). So we are just in the same rank of the Prophets and righteous people, and that is fine for us. That was my point. Now where is my cross??? It depends on your interpretation of the term, some Christians will interpret Jesus "<i>intention</i>" by saying carry your cross as physical pain or burden, while other will view that cross as a sign of love, atonement and sacrifice etc... however, "carry your cross and follow me" means to be prepare to die for this message, which is something similar to <b>JIHAD</b> in Islam, to struggle and exhort efforts for that cause. However, Jesus pbuh <b>was talking only to his disciples and not the entire mankind to carry their cross</b>. BTW, in my Christian Greek Scripture it says: "<b>carry his torture stake</b>", no cross is mentioned, maybe you can explain to us the difference between cross and stake since you do not believe in the words of scholars as a proof, <b>maybe you will also argue that the Greek Scriptures are not accurate</b>!!! Quote:And now you twist the Scripture to fit your own desire. That is not what that verse is speaking about. It's talking about those righteous men who lived before; Abraham, Solomon, David, Isaiah, who longed to see the coming of the Messiah. I did not interpret anything, I only quoted a very clear verse which does not need any interpretation, and I will quote it again for other viewers <b>and let them tell us whether your interpretation make any sense</b>. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the son of man will be fulfilled, <b>he will be handed over to the Gentiles, they will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him, and kill him and on the third day he will rise again</b>. THE DISCIPLES DID NOT UNDERSTANT ANY OF THIS, ITS MEANING WAS HIDDEN FROM THEM AND THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. Luke 18:31-34 <b>Members of Islam Message Forums</b>, please tell me what is so hidden in the above verse??? Quote:What was mentioned in Luke, was written before Acts 2, and when the Holy Spirit was given they then understood clearly why Jesus was crucified. So yes, I understand, and they understand too. That is misleading, because in John Jesus told his disciples "<b>receive ye the Holy Ghost</b>" and the 4 gospels were written before Acts. However, this is not a big issue, the real point is that Luke 18:31-34 <b>does not need any Holy Ghost to descend upon ANYBODY to make them understand. </b> Quote:I didn't say anything about worshiping Jesus, only that Jesus is the only way, only truth, and only way to eternal life with the Father. In his time only because there was no Jesus during the OT, there was only Moses pbuh and the rest of Jewish prophets, <b>they were also the way to God in their time, they were to be followed in order to be saved. </b> Quote:Wael, and as said in the other thread, true, you wouldn't have affection for that person, but if that person, at the time they were near you had a need, we, as followers of Jesus Christ, are commanded to meet that need. It has nothing to do with mental illness, like I said, it's about showing undeserved mercy and compassion, the same that was shown for us. The teaching is beautiful, I agree, but it is not followed by Christians because it is impossible to be followed, come and show me 'LOVE' if I slap you hard in public, come and give me your other cheek, how many times will you allow me to slap you since I am an enemy (<i>for example</i>)? I agree that if that enemy was in need later on and seeks my help, i would not hesitate to offer that help, <b>NOT BECAUSE I LOVE HIM</b>, but because i am commanded to return evil with that which is good. Quote:As far as their words not being original....that is something I will not accept. And no, I wouldn't take the word of so-called scholars as proof. This is the problem of you Christians, you can't even examine what possibly might be the truth, because truth hurts sometimes, I agree. Salam Wael. |
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