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Quote:The same John gave instructions on how to handle such as you describe:
2 John 1:7
(7) For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world,<b> men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form
</b>. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.
Shamms
Salaams
Hope it is OK, i just saw this and felt like jumping in
I dont see how this verse would apply to Muslims. We believe in the coming of Jesus in bodily form.
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04-22-2009, 06:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2009, 07:02 PM by AlShamms.)
Quote:I dont see how this verse would apply to Muslims. We believe in the coming of Jesus in bodily form.
Peace SisterJennifer,
Actually you don't. Remember, this is the same John who wrote the Gospel of John and there, he speaks about the divinity of Jesus Christ:
John 1:1-2
(1) IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
(2) He was present originally with God.
John 1:14
(14) And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.
This is not to start a discussion of the Trinity (that's been done elsewhere), this is to show how John recorded the divinity of Christ and instructions regarding those who do not hold the view that John recorded. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet just like Moses and Abraham and equal to those prophets of old. They do not view him as the long awaited Messiah.
Shamms
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Quote:They do not view him as the long awaited Messiah.
Hey Shamms,
Im not sure I am understanding how you are pulling all the other criteria into that original verse which just says 'do not acknowledge the coming of Christ in bodily form.'
Yes, I would say that Muslims DO in fact view him as the Messiah that will come at the end of time to defeat the anti Christ. I dont see the where the problem would be. If John wanted to say 'people who dont believe in the trinity' he could have just as easily said that, or anything similar, but he didnt. So is it possible that you are just over complicating something simple? Or am I missing something else?
Thanks
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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
So this is what I meant by my post, that you are not allowed to receive us into your home or even wish us a good speed the moment <b>ANY NON CHRISTIAN OR FALSE CHRISTIAN </b>calls you to any other doctrine except the one your Church belongs to (<b>and bear in mind how many churches out there</b>), but I wonder, if you are not allowed to receive us in your homes, <b>then why do you visit our home?</b> (<i>i.e. this board</i>) since you are 100% sure that we are preaching here Islam which is in conflict with your doctrine!!!!! is itt allowed for you to kick us out of your home but at the same time you may come and knock our doors? Please clarify...
<b>'AlShamms' </b>
Quote:The same John gave instructions on how to handle such as you describe:
2 John 1:7
(7) For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.
In my NWT (New world Translation) of the Christian Greek Scriptures, and in that same verse that you have quoted, they direct the reader to I John 2:22 where we read: <b>"Who is the liar? If it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Anti Christ."</b> So there is nothing here about his divinity!!! And as you may know, that in our book of authority, the Qur’an Allah tells us: <b>"Behold!' the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him: his name will THE MESSIAH Jesus the son of Mary; held in honor in this world and the hereafter; and (of the company of) those nearest to Allah." ( Qur’an 3:45)</b>
Quote:I would do exactly what my Bible instructs me to do, which is not allow you into my home to teach your false doctrine.
According to the verse I quoted above, my Bible considers you a false preacher, and no, if I knew that I would not allow you into my home.
This is what we said in the original post where we exposed how Christians should treat Non Christians who believe that their faith is the truth, in other words <b>you cannot tolerate me and my faith, you have no tolerance for other faiths according to your Bible, so no argument about the original post then. </b>
Salam
Wael.
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Peace Wael,
I often wonder why you choose the particular words you use. For instance, how can you "expose" something that's available for all to read? You can only expose something that's hidden.
A message board is not a home, so it's alright for me to come here. And again, I only comment on post concerning either the Bible or the Christian religion. (personal choice)
No I had no problem with the post that started this thread, only wanted to add some clarification for the readers. As to your last question, yes, it is allowed for us to not let you into our homes and yet, preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to you.
Shamms
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Peace SisterJennifer,
To understand how I am pulling the other criteria into the verse, you have to understand all of what John wrote concerning Jesus Christ. For instance, In John's first letter he writes:
1 John 1:1-2
(1) [WE ARE writing] about the Word of Life [in] Him Who existed from the beginning, Whom we have heard, Whom we have seen with our [own] eyes, Whom we have gazed upon [for ourselves] and have touched with our [own] hands.
(2) And the Life [an aspect of His being] was revealed (made manifest, demonstrated), and we saw [as eyewitnesses] and are testifying to and declare to you the Life, the eternal Life [in Him] Who already existed with the Father and Who [actually] was made visible (was revealed) to us [His followers].
Which is actually a repeat of what he wrote in what is called the Gospel of John in the first chapter. The divinity of Jesus Christ is the central theme of that Gospel and is a theme that is carried throughout all of John's letters.
Again, we aren't speaking about "trinity", only the divinity of Jesus Christ.
While muslims believe "messiah" will come at the end of the world, the Bible teaches something different:
John 4:25-26
(25) The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, He Who is called the Christ (the Anointed One); and when He arrives, He will tell us everything we need to know and make it clear to us.
(26) Jesus said to her, I Who now speak with you am He.
Christians know and understand that Jesus Christ the Messiah has indeed come...as Jesus himself admitted that he was the Messiah
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04-23-2009, 06:20 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2009, 08:24 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
<b>'AlShamms' </b>
Quote:I often wonder why you choose the particular words you use. For instance, how can you "expose" something that's available for all to read? You can only expose something that's hidden.
I am trying to expose that which is not common to most of us (i.e. Muslims and Christians), for example, I don't think that a Christian preacher will ever touch on these verses when addressing his audience, but rather he will speak about <i>'loving our enemies</i>' which is to me a big joke when you don't receive us in your home or even to wish us a good speed... that's why i was always say that loving your enemy thing is something is impossible to practice.
Quote:A message board is not a home, so it's alright for me to come here. And again, I only comment on post concerning either the Bible or the Christian religion. (personal choice)
Well, we consider this board to be home and the Muslims memebers are one family, and that's why i am not sure why should you visit "<i>imposters</i>" place???
Salam
Wael.
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Quote:Christians know and understand that Jesus Christ the Messiah has indeed come...as Jesus himself admitted that he was the Messiah
Muslims too believe that the Messiah has already come and was raised to Allah and shall come again (his second coming).
Salam
Wael.
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Peace Wael,
When a Christian "loves their enemy", it has nothing to do with allowing that individual into their home or wishing them God speed. It has everything to do with meeting their need at the appropriate time. Take for example the story in the Bible of the good Samaritan. He "loved his enemy" by attending to the man's wounds and taking him to the inn so the man may rest and regain his strength. That is what the Christian is supposed to do...meed the needs of those he/she encounters. If you have food, drink, clothing and shelter, the only thing you're lacking is the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I love you when I tell you the truth that is Jesus the Christ.
As far as the message board is concerned, your perception doesn't matter...the reality is, it isn't a home.
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04-24-2009, 03:01 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2009, 03:05 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
<b>'AlShamms'</b>
Quote:When a Christian "loves their enemy", it has nothing to do with allowing that individual into their home or wishing them God speed. It has everything to do with meeting their need at the appropriate time. Take for example the story in the Bible of the good Samaritan. He "loved his enemy" by attending to the man's wounds and taking him to the inn so the man may rest and regain his strength. That is what the Christian is supposed to do...meed the needs of those he/she encounters. If you have food, drink, clothing and shelter, the only thing you're lacking is the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I love you when I tell you the truth that is Jesus the Christ.
meeting people's need has nothing to do with loving them... so its not necessary that you love your enemy to offer all kind of charitable and voluntarily work, you may do all these things seeking God's pleasure and nothing else... I still insist that NO ONE can LOVE really his enemy unless you guys don't know the meaning of LOVE.
Micheal H Hart said in his book (<b>The 100, a ranking of the most influential persons in history</b>) about the idea of loving one's enemy the followings:
Quote:Now, these ideas—which were not a part of the Judaism of Jesus' day, nor of most other religions—are surely among the most remarkable and original ethical ideas ever presented. <b>If they were widely followed</b>, I would have had no hesitation in placing Jesus first in this book.
<b>But the truth is that they are not widely followed. In fact, they are not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider the injunction to "Love your enemy" as—at most—an ideal which might be realized in some perfect world, but one which is not a reasonable guide to conduct in the actual world we live in. We do not normally practice it, do not expect others to practice it, and do not teach our children to practice it. Jesus' most distinctive teaching, therefore, remains an intriguing but basically untried suggestion</b>.
<b>'AlShamms'</b>
Quote:As far as the message board is concerned, your perception doesn't matter...the reality is, it isn't a home.
Don't bother, the board is not a home, but you've already declared with the help of your Bible that we are 'imposters' because we are preaching other than your doctrine...so my question remain unanswered, why do you come to this place? (i.e. imposters' place)??? I would love to know your intention.
Please note, I am not suggesting that you should leave here, and I will never kick you of this board, and I will not hesitate to wish you well and pray for you even if you are preaching Christianity, you are our guest, and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh told us to be kind and generous to our guest if we are truly believers in Allah and the last Day... however, I just wanted to understand <b>WHY</b> should you come here knowing very well that we preaching other than your doctrine and at the same time we are not allowed in your home for the <b>SAME REASON</b>????????????
Salam
Wael.
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