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Quote:Peace....
Jennifer, I don't and I'll tell you why. The Bible gives us (Christians) what we need in order to preach the gospel accurately, positively and with results. The problem that you mentioned about Christianity being "wide" isn't from what the Bible teaches. That comes from men attempting to use the Bible to further their own ends.
Yes, right. People interpret things differently, and also the bibles themselves differ. We are not saying anything different from each other.
Honestly, I am not interested in getting into a discussion about what I used to believe or do, as it just isn't relevant or beneficial to me.
Take care.
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Quote:Yes, right. People interpret things differently, and also the bibles themselves differ. We are not saying anything different from each other.
Honestly, I am not interested in getting into a discussion about what I used to believe or do, as it just isn't relevant or beneficial to me.
Take care.
Peace.....
That's fine and I understand, just as I don't often discuss my practicing Islam those years ago. But what I would like for you to understand is that it isn't a difference in interpretation, it's a difference of being right and being wrong. When 9/11 happened, many Muslims said those who carried out that act did not represent what Islam was about. Many Muslims said, and say, Islam is a religion of peace. That is not a difference in interpretation, that is the difference between being right and being wrong...do you see my point?
Shamms
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Quote:Peace.....
That's fine and I understand, just as I don't often discuss my practicing Islam those years ago. But what I would like for you to understand is that it isn't a difference in interpretation, it's a difference of being right and being wrong. When 9/11 happened, many Muslims said those who carried out that act did not represent what Islam was about. Many Muslims said, and say, Islam is a religion of peace. That is not a difference in interpretation, that is the difference between being right and being wrong...do you see my point?
Shamms
Well, I dont think these two things are comparable.
And I don't agree with you because they really are different interpretations and different texts, and naturally everyone will think his individual way is the right and everybody else is wrong. Otherwise they would not choose to follow as they do.
So for this reason it is impossible to group the entire body of Christians worldwide under one umbrella. This was my only point.
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Quote:Well, I dont think these two things are comparable.
And I don't agree with you because they really are different interpretations and different texts, and naturally everyone will think his individual way is the right and everybody else is wrong. Otherwise they would not choose to follow as they do.
So for this reason it is impossible to group the entire body of Christians worldwide under one umbrella. This was my only point.
Peace.....
I can understand why you feel that way, I understand it differently.
Shamms
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Bismillah
salam AlShamms
Thank you very much for taking the time and giving this full explanation of Ezekiel 23:20
However, I m quite aware of the metaphore part in the text and I m sure you were aware of my question, may be you wanted to take sometime to find a way to explain it. Again, do you see this is a divine text? I mean would you safely have children read such explicit text? A divine text, in my opinion, should be respectable, not sensational, I mean this is a book of worship. So let me paraphrase my question. We as Muslims look at this and other similar texts, like Song of songs that is full of explicit sentences, as inappropriate to be sourced from a Deity, how do you perceive it??
I will spare what a Jewish friend of mine told me about it 10 years ago.
Waiting Shamms.
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Quote:Bismillah
salam AlShamms
Thank you very much for taking the time and giving this full explanation of Ezekiel 23:20
However, I m quite aware of the metaphore part in the text and I m sure you were aware of my question, may be you wanted to take sometime to find a way to explain it. Again, do you see this is a divine text? I mean would you safely have children read such explicit text? A divine text, in my opinion, should be respectable, not sensational, I mean this is a book of worship. So let me paraphrase my question. We as Muslims look at this and other similar texts, like Song of songs that is full of explicit sentences, as inappropriate to be sourced from a Deity, how do you perceive it??
I will spare what a Jewish friend of mine told me about it 10 years ago.
Waiting Shamms.
Peace....
Muslimah, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. While you and other Muslims are uncomfortable with metaphoric language, I am not. Do I believe this and other metaphoric language found in the Bible is divinely inspired? Yes I do. Would I allow my children to read such language? Yes with the proper guidance.
Shamms
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11-23-2008, 09:24 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2008, 10:04 PM by Muslimah.)
Bismillah
Let me step in and try to explain what Wael wanted to say regarding the beget issue that you fully accepted and saw nothing wrong with it.
The word beget, I m quite certain that bible scribes never intended to communicate the meaning of man/woman relation that results into begeting children. No but misusing a word to describe a holy process, is not acceptable in a divine book. It falls under the same category when the bible speaks about how:
Luke 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. This text also raised controvery, but I think for me it is clear the meaning is clear. Yet it did raise criticism and controversy which was admitted even by some priests. Well anyway.
Also let me help you understand the description of Quran in this regard mean.
Qur'an 19:19-22 Pickthal Translation
(19) He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
(20) She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
(21) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
(22) And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
As I do not speak Arabic, I will trust the knowledge of the translator to have accurately transcribe the above verses. As you can see Wael, and as you well know, Islam teaches in the conception of Isa without seed having been ejaculated into Marayam's womb.
To understand this part, you need to start from here:
"She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then <b>We sent to her Our Spirit [angel Gabriel], </b>and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.* She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to humankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah).' "So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem valley about 4-6 miles from Jerusalem)." (Quran 19:17-22)
Pls note the underlined bolded part. This is the core of interest. Now Allah Using the word spirit here, or in Arabic Ruh which is also soul should never be taken as Allah's soul, because if Allah Has a soul/spirit, then He is mortal which is not the case of course.
In other positions in Quran Allah also used the word Ruh to rand Archangle Gabriel because he was the one in charge of taking down revelation to Messengers, and being a revelation carrier and simultaensouly is an angel. The soul has the life , and angles are alive but with no substance, this makes them absolute souls, unlike human beings who are created of substance (mud) then receive the soul to become alive.
Having said that, it becomes quite clear how Allah accurately described who implemented Allah's command of granting Mariam a son without male intervention.
An even more detailed description you will find in (Quran 66:12):
And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Spirit [i.e. Gabriel], and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord [i.e. believed in the Words of Allah: "Be!" and he was; that is Jesus son of Mary; as a Messenger of Allah], and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitin (i.e. obedient to Allah).
Allah Commanded Gabriel to breath into her sleeve, the breath travelled to where it is supposed to land to her womb and she concieved Essa blessing and prayer be upon him. In this context, Allah elquently described the process leaving no doubt for the reader to realise the miraculous conception of Eassa, the chasteness of Mariam blessing and peace be upon them. Most important leaving no way for one to misunderstand or get confused as the son is son of God (astaghferullah). The description is so clear and accurate and most important divine fitting Alhamdulelah.
I think now you can see the difference.
A Divine entity can never misuse a term, word to describe such a landmark in humanity, using the term beget, is demeaning to Allah, Eassa and Mariam blessing and peace be upon them. It means that God is incapable of coming up with a better word. Wael didnt mean to say that bible writers intended to communicate an occurance of intercourse, but rather he wanted to say that this is a bad choice of wording. Bad choice of wording can never be attributed to Allah. May Allah Be Glofiried of what they ascribe to Him.
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11-23-2008, 09:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2008, 09:34 PM by Muslimah.)
Bismillah
I m sorry Shamms, but I think you are getting my point but trying to evade it. The problem is not the metaphore, the problem is the explicit language, such as the part, I really dont want to type this here. But enough to use one example of the woman recalling her lovers in Egypt whose.. like donkeys and .... like horses. This is not metaphore, this is porno, sorry to say.
When I discussed this same point with my Jewish co worker at that time, she honestly said, I understand your point that is why we dont call it a divine book but rather legends of the ealier generations. At least she was honest and logical about it.
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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>Shamms</b>
Quote:Wael, then we can end this discussion here. Jesus Christ is unique because he is the only begotten Son of God. Object all you like, disagree all you like. The Bible writers were clear in their choosing of Monogenes to describe Christ.
Yes they were clear of choosing Monogenes to describe Jesus, however, the Bible translators were <b>NOT</b> that clear or were not properly inspired by the Holy Ghost to translate the word as BEGOTTEN!!!!, what does it mean to you when almost <b>ALL available Bibles today does not have the word begotten?</b>
Quote:While I know I cannot teach a muslim their religion, the same is true for the Christian. You cannot teach me mine. So if you notice I hardly ever reply to posts outside the "Discussion of Beliefs" area. I understand you know your religion, but you do not know mine.
<b>Who told you in the first place that we have started a new school to ‘teach’ Christians their religion?</b> We do not teach them, what actually I am doing is analyzing the Christian Bible and presenting my own understanding of the text, you either provide a logical explanation, refutable argument or you can just say as you said earlier to me “<b>OBJECT ALL YOU LIKE, DISAGREE ALL YOU LIKE</b>” which shows how complicated the matter for you to explain.
Quote:In this chapter the idolatries of Israel and Judah are represented under the metaphor of two harlots, and their lewdness.
I guess you did misunderstand the question of sister Muslimah, we do not object the <i>MESSAGE</i> of that chapter, <b>we are against the use of inappropriate language and terms which can never be inspired by God the Creator.</b>
As regards to “<i>reading these materials to your children with guidance</i>”… do you mean that you might also rent some pornographic magazines and video tapes to show them to your children to teach them the evil of unlawful sexual intercourse? and while watching with them for "<b>guidance</b>"you may say: “<i>Hey kids, do not commit fornication or adultery, this is wrong, God does not like that what you see and read</i>” ???? What guidance are you talking about? Would any sane person do such thing? <b>These types of stories will definitely leave an impact on the children’s minds!!!</b>
Will you for example, allow your children <b>to act that event of Ezikel 23 in their school as an educational play word for word as recorded in that chapter?</b>
We Muslims also have got some metaphoric stories to teach our kids certain lessons, but <i>SIZES</i> and <i>HORSES</i> etc, there is no point at all for God to <b>go out of His way to reveal to us such thing</b>!!
And for your information, this chapter was banned by South African Government years ago and they recognized it as pornography book.
Quote:I'm not trying to be a spokesperson per se, but what I am doing, by the Grace of God, is providing correct answers according to Scripture.
Ok then could you please answer why the word begotten was removed by your scholars from almost all Bibles? because for every translation you may provide where the word begotten is mentioned in John 3:16, I can show you <b>10 different versions of your Bible where the word begotten is not used at all</b>.
Salam
Wael.
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<b> Muslimah wrote: We as Muslims look at this and other similar texts, like Song of songs that is full of explicit sentences, as inappropriate to be sourced from a Deity... this is porno, sorry to say.
</b>
I thought it was almost universally agreed, amongst Islamic scholars, that the book Song of Songs is about Mohammad. See, for example:
Biblical Prophecies About Muhammad
which states:
<i><b>There are a number of remaining references to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible, one where he is even mentioned by name in the original Hebrew (Song of Songs 5:9-16)! "Cheeko mame tah kim, vechulo Mohamadim." This means "His language is most sweet, and he is Muhammad." In the English translations of the Bible, Muhammad's name is translated as "altogether lovely".” </b></i>
Are you claiming then, Muslimah, that Song of Songs is a divinely inspired pornographic book about Mohammad???
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