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radiyah · 11-20-2008, 01:57 PM

Bismillah

Quote:My Bible teaches that Salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ

Well, we know that salvation will be obtained by Eesa nearing the end of world, we know that and we believe in it, he will return after Al-Mahdi shows and he will fight the Antichrist, and he will spread peace and just on earth, we beleive in that, but we do not beleive he is God, nor the son of God.

Anyways, I received what I wanted, u refused Mubahala, it proves that the word of Allah Subhanahu wa Tála is correct after 1428 years ago, Alhamdulilah, I will not argue anymore just for the sake of arguing, I still raise my hands to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'la to enlighten your heart and show u the right path.

Dear Wael he is all yours.

A reminder for those who are seeking for the truth



Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, (16) And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. (17) She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. (18) He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. (19) She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? (20) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a Portent for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained. (21) And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place. (22) And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten! (23) Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee, (24) And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee. (25) So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal. (26)Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing. (27) O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. (28) Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy? (29) He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, (30) And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, (31) And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. (32) Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! (33) Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truthconcerning which they doubt. (34) It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. (35)

Salam

***Muslimah*** · 11-20-2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:Bismillah
Well, we know that salvation will be obtained by Eesa nearing the end of world, we know that and we believe in it, he will return after Al-Mahdi shows and he will fight the Antichrist,

Dear sister, we can not call this salvation. The concept of salvation in Islam is totally different. We depend on Allah's mercy sister, no matter how much good deeds we do, at the end we are will not be admitted to Jannah except by Allah's mercy. The concept of salvation in Christianity is that you will not be rescued unless you believe in Jesus as God. Is this how we believe?

***Muslimah*** · 11-20-2008, 09:28 PM

Bismillah

Wael, hello, as for the Arabic bible, my co worker told me she checked in her church and found a small version with a small font. She also made a point, she narrated the situation to someone who told her how come, this book is publicly sold in Cairo International Book fair? exactly. She told me if I cannt find it in 15 days in bookstores, she is going to get me one. Today I checked with Madbouly book store, you know them, they also have the small one and will get a bigger version in 2 days. So the issue is not really difficult. i m not sure why this man made a fuss with your sister.

Any way, but the Madbouly people are Muslims. Let me try calling Al kitab Al Moqadas.

Will keep you posted.

AlShamms · (This post was last modified: 11-20-2008, 10:46 PM by AlShamms.)

Peace....

Wael, "Son" in Matthew 3:17 is the Greek word Uihos and means just that, the male offspring. The word Uihos does not mean servant. Since the definition you provided is incorrect, the following premise you attempted to connect to son meaning servant is also incorrect.

You say it is blasphemy to say Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, we Christians, according to the Bible, say it is blasphemy to say he is not. Jesus Christ refers to himself in relation to the Father in this manner.

John 3:16

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thus further proving my point about two different deities.

This is the crux of the issue between Muslims and Christians. Muslims cannot get beyond their natural minds to understand why "begotten" is used to describe Jesus Christ's relationship to the Father. Begotten in Greek does not mean "to have sexual intercourse and produce" as you seem to believe Wael. Begotten in Greek is the term Monogenes and means: Single, of its kind, only.

The word begat Wael, in Matthew the first chapter is the Greek word Gennao and means: Of men who fathered children. So while that word implies physical sexual intercourse, the word Monogenes, in reference to Jesus Christ, does not.

Jesus Christ is single, of his kind because he was born of the Holy Spirit and not from physical sexual intercourse.

As far as Israel is concerned, both as a man (Jacob) and a nation; Israel is called "son" to show the personal relationship between YHVH and that people (Exodus 6:7). You will also notice Wael, in the two verses you provided Exodus 4:22 & 23 that the Hebrew words for "son" and "serve" are totally different. Son is the Hebrew word Bên and Serve is the Hebrew word ‛âbad, just like the website you quote states. Showing and proving that even in the Old Testament, son does not mean servant.

One last question Wael, you said:

"Can you show me a SINGLE verse in the entire New Testament where JEHOVAH’S name is mentioned?"

LOL, actually I can...now pay attention.

Matthew 1:21

(21) She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Jesus name in Hebrew is Yeshua which means "JEHOVAH'S Salvation". So every time you see Jesus in the New Testament, you're seeing Jehovah's Salvation.

-smile-

radiyah · 11-20-2008, 10:45 PM

Bismillah

I might be wrong of calling it salvation, but of course I do not mean it as being saved as the christians do, but what I really wanted to clear here that we do believe as Allah Subhanahu wa Tala promised, and in the Ahadeeth of Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him, that Jesus will return by Allah's will, he will kill the Antichrist and he will break the cross and just and peace will spread around the world and all by Allah's will, then he will die and be burried just like any human being and aotho bi Allah not as son of God, la Hawla wala gowata ila bi Allah from what they ascribe to Him.

Salam

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 11-21-2008, 06:51 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

Quote:Wael, "Son" in Matthew 3:17 is the Greek word Uihos and means just that, the male offspring. The word Uihos does not mean servant. Since the definition you provided is incorrect, the following premise you attempted to connect to son meaning servant is also incorrect.

I wasn’t misleading people AlShams... plus I can’t lie on whatever information I am presenting here because we are Muslims Alhamdulelah…anyway, let us analyze what you have brought into the picture:

* Mathew 3:17 speaks about SON, I agree, but at the same time we Muslim take strong objection of using this term especially when you attribute such quality to God Almighty, that he has BEGET a son, because it means as shown in the Greek Bible:

hwee-os'

a son 1a) rarely used for the young of animals 1b) generally used of the offspring of men
1c) in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother
)

http://www.greekbible.com/index.php

We all know HOW a man is born by a FATHER and a MOTHER…

Believe me AlShams, I am not trying to portray that you believe that Jesus was born as a result of any male intervention, however, I am against the use of that term which has no other meaning except what it really means.

Now coming to the verse that I’ve provided earlier ACTS 3:26, and from the GREEK BIBLE it says:

{paheece} the meaning is:

1) a child, boy or girl 1a) infants, children 2) servant, slave
2a) an attendant, servant, spec. a king's attendant, minister For Synonyms see entry 5868

So I was not misleading people, here is the term explained in the Greek Bible, some translators used SERVANT while the others used SON, which is either a contradiction, or they saw no problem of using both terms as synonyms words.

Quote:You say it is blasphemy to say Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, we Christians, according to the Bible, say it is blasphemy to say he is not. Jesus Christ refers to himself in relation to the Father in this manner.

When you say WE CHRISTIANS you makes it sound like every Christian believe that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God, which is not the case, because if you open the RSV of the Bible, this word BEGOTTEN was thrown out as a fabrication by 32 scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperating denominations of Christianity.

If an old man called me my son, because I respect him as my father, and you heard him calling me that, then you asked him "is he really your son?" and he answered you "YES HE IS MY BEGOTTEN SON" then everybody will understand the EXACT meaning of the word begotten here!!!

Quote:John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thus further proving my point about two different deities.

As I just said earlier, this word BEGOTTEN was removed from almost all modern translations of the Bible as an interpolation.

Please also note that we do not worship separate gods as you wanted to say, but we perceive him differently, that’s all.

Quote:This is the crux of the issue between Muslims and Christians. Muslims cannot get beyond their natural minds to understand why "begotten" is used to describe Jesus Christ's relationship to the Father. Begotten in Greek does not mean "to have sexual intercourse and produce" as you seem to believe Wael. Begotten in Greek is the term Monogenes and means: Single, of its kind, only.

Can’t God choose a proper word to describe that this son is ONE OF ITS KIND ??? Like for example, UNIQUE!!!!!!!!! doesn't He have any word in any language to describe His Only Son as unique and NOT BEGOTTEN!!!!!!!

Now let me remind you that plenty of books were written in Greek stating that the word MONOGENES should not be translated as the ONLY BEGOTTEN, (if you need the references let me know please so that I can dig and bring them to light).

Quote:The word begat Wael, in Matthew the first chapter is the Greek word Gennao and means: Of men who fathered children. So while that word implies physical sexual intercourse, the word Monogenes, in reference to Jesus Christ, does not.

You should complete the meaning as found in the Greek Bible please…

{ghen-nah'-o}

1) of men who fathered children 1a) to be born
 1b) to be begotten
 1b1) of women giving birth to children 2) metaph. 2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite 2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone 2c) of God making Christ his son 2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work


To be begotten, the same word used in reference to Jesus as you are claiming, so what are you really trying to emphasize? That he was BEGOTTEN !!!

Also as God can make Christ as His son, so too He can make MEN HIS SONS THROUGH FAITH , so he is not really THE ONLY Son, God has got sons by the tons in the Bible.

Quote:One last question Wael, you said:
"Can you show me a SINGLE verse in the entire New Testament where JEHOVAH’S name is mentioned?"

LOL, actually I can...now pay attention.

Matthew 1:21

(21) She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Jesus name in Hebrew is Yeshua which means "JEHOVAH'S Salvation". So every time you see Jesus in the New Testament, you're seeing Jehovah's Salvation.

Why should you give a name to Jesus in Hebrew when his mother tongue was Aramaic? Jesus name in Aramaic was ESHO, a language that exists several hundred years before the Hebrew language, and so it does not have anything to do with the Hebrew Yeshua

PLUS the name Yeshua was VERY COMMON among the Jews and it was not only given to Jesus pbuh, the OT mentioned several persons with the same name Yeshua... So are you telling us that there are MORE THAN ONE PERSON WHO IS JEHOVAH’S SALVATION???

PLUS, the name Yeshua does not mean JEHOVAH’S SALVATION, but rather means TO SAVE, or TO DELIVER and so there is no place for Jehovah as you've tried to show us, the word Jehovah was never found in the NT.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · 11-21-2008, 06:39 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Bismillah
Wael, hello, as for the Arabic bible, my co worker told me she checked in her church and found a small version with a small font. She also made a point, she narrated the situation to someone who told her how come, this book is publicly sold in Cairo International Book fair? exactly. She told me if I cannt find it in 15 days in bookstores, she is going to get me one. Today I checked with Madbouly book store, you know them, they also have the small one and will get a bigger version in 2 days. So the issue is not really difficult. i m not sure why this man made a fuss with your sister.

Any way, but the Madbouly people are Muslims. Let me try calling Al kitab Al Moqadas.

Will keep you posted.

Maybe this problem exist only in Alexandria?? i don't know because several Christian friends of mine told me that they are not really encouraged by their leaders to give the Bible (OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS) to their Muslim friends. but anyway, i will be so glad to get one copy of the complete Bible in Arabic, so please let me know if there are any news.

Thanks for helping me out on this.

Salam

Wael.

***Muslimah*** · 11-21-2008, 07:03 AM

Bismillah

as salam alykom all

Alright, a long waited question on my part, pls brothers and sisters I want to ask reepi and Shamms this question and pls hold on your replies till they respond.

Shamms and reepi, did both of you read Song of the Songs? I guess you both seem to be well versed with the Bible and read it frequently, I assume yes? how do you rate this text? and BTW, I always wanted to ask Nazarines this question and find out the answer. So I will highly appreciate knowing your insight about it.

***Muslimah*** · 11-21-2008, 07:04 AM

Quote:Bismillah
I might be wrong of calling it salvation, Salam

Exactly sister, this is one of the major signs of the hour, not salvation. As I explained, salvation concept is different. Of course out of concern for you, I wanted you to correct it in public lest this would continue being in your record, Alhamdulelah.

AlShamms · 11-21-2008, 03:44 PM

Peace....

Wael, I never said you were misleading anyone. Misleading implies intent, something I never thought or accused you of.

Yes Wael, we all know how MAN and WOMAN procreate. But how did God, according to your own book, place seed in Marayam's womb?

Qur'an 19:19-22 Pickthal Translation

(19) He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

(20) She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

(21) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

(22) And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.

As I do not speak Arabic, I will trust the knowledge of the translator to have accurately transcribe the above verses. As you can see Wael, and as you well know, Islam teaches in the conception of Isa without seed having been ejaculated into Marayam's womb.

When I say "We Christians" I mean every Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son....not hard to figure out

Wael, you cannot make Begotten mean something it does not. Begotten does not imply physical sexual intercourse, and anyone who uses the term in that way, is incorrect. If the Bible writers wanted to use Gennao to describe the conception and birth of Jesus, they could have...they did not. They used Monogenes which again means single, of its kind.

Wael, you ask if God cannot choose a proper word to describe his unique son. He did, it's Monogenes. I'm sorry if you object to the use of the term, but your objection alone does not invalidate the use of the term. Yes, Jehovah can, and did, make men his sons through faith in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

Wael, we mention the Hebrew name Yeshua because the Old Testament was written in that language and translated from that language into Greek. So you mentioning Aramaic is a non-issue. Yes, there were persons in the Old Testament who also were given the name Yeshua whom you say simply means "To Save" or "To Deliver"; my question is, who is doing the saving and delivering? Jehovah is.

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