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Polygyny Questionnaire for Brothers-NEED YOUR HELP!!!
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10-30-2007, 01:43 AM
<b>Wel_Mel_2 wrote: FHC claims that Christ's ONLY church is the CATHOLIC. do you agree with that claim?</b> I am Lutheran. Every Sunday in church, we read the Apostles' which reads (in part) <b>"...I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints…."</b> So, yes, I believe that I am a member of the holy catholic church.
10-30-2007, 01:47 AM
<b>hadji wrote: Jesus wasn't anywhere close to being as blunt as that. Even if he meant that, the ruler couldn't have known what Jesus was trying to tell him.</b> I don't know who you mean by "ruler". I need to know who you are referring to before I can comment further.  Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum. Quote:So, yes, I believe that I am a member of the holy catholic church. Ok, we are now clear about you being a catholic. Now back to the topic. <b>My challenge to all Christians: </b> Where can we see,<b> anywhere </b> in the New Testament, <b>where polygamy is condemned by God or Jesus? </b> In other words, <b>how did any Christians know the prohibition of polygamy based on reading the NT alone? </b> The fact is, after doing some research on this topic, I found that <b>God Almighty Himself in the OT speaks in polygamous terms</b>, and in my opinion, God will never describe Himself in terms of any example of sins, if polygamy was indeed a sin. "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, <b>although I was an husband unto them</b>, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34 And now my favorite verse OF THE DAY... Malachi 2:14-15 --- "wife of thy youth" <b>is a man's first wife</b>, the wife with whom he grew and learned how to so love, bless, and <b>edify any wife. </b> I will be away for about 4 days, insh a Allah will catch up the discussion when i come back. Salam Wael.. 
10-30-2007, 05:07 AM
Quote:I don't know who you mean by "ruler". I need to know who you are referring to before I can comment further. Luke 18:18 "And a certain <b>ruler</b> asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 
10-30-2007, 05:45 AM
Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all. Quote:No one is infallible but God Almighty alone, <b>neither the Pope, nor Jesus himself was infallible</b>. Exactly! & when the Holy Father proclaims dogma, he's protected from error by the Holy Spirit (whom Catholics believe to be God). You only need to read the Church's history to realize that no dogma has ever been altered in any way, shape or form... because it can't be. God's word is final & unchangable. Quote:Jesus himself was so angry when somebody called him GOOD, Where on earth did you get the idea that Jesus was angry? Did someone leave you alone with the Bible again? Quote:Yes you got it right FHC, <b>the solution to something haram, is to make it halal,</b> :o I never wanted to be right! Quote:I am a single, do not want to commit fornication, then I got married to protect myself from Zina, in this case, <b>something haram was about to happen by committing fornication, then by Allah's help I've made it Halal by getting married.</b> This is not the way marriage should be treated. It's not a means to satify our sexual desires. Your partner isn't an object. Quote:I have a wife, she is barren, or she got very sick that she can't look after me anymore, then I saw another kind sister who was looking for a husband to support her, so I simply married her so that she can look after me and after my sick first wife too. In this case, again, <b>something haram (adultery) might have happened if I didn't take a second wife, and so it was substituted by something which is Halal i.e marriage.</b> Where I come from, we help one another without marrying more than once. We rely on God & human kindness... not polygyny. Quote:In this case, there is nothing wrong, Abraham and David and almost all prophets got married more than once and God Almighty blessed all of them <b>and said nothing about polygyny being bad thing. </b> Maybe in Islam but certainly not in Christianity. Before you start throwing biblical verses at me, think again. We explored polygamy in the Bible not that long ago. I don't have the energy to go through it all with you again & we both know there's no point because you never listen to anything I say. For anyone else who missed our previous discussion & would like to catch up, please visit this thread: http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4165&st=60 Thanks & God bless.
10-30-2007, 05:46 AM
Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all. Quote:Hmm... That doesn't sounds very likely to me. Jesus wasn't anywhere close to being as blunt as that. Even if he meant that, the ruler couldn't have known what Jesus was trying to tell him. Furthermore, Jesus focuses on the commandments and not on the issue of his divinity. Hadji, I'd have to agree with Reep. Jesus didn't walk around with a sign on his head saying, "Worship Me, I'm the Son of God." He revealed it numerous times but He was always very humble & discreet about it. Once you study this text carefully, & pay close attention to Jesus' words, you'll reach one of two conclusions: either He is speaking out of His own divine authority, or He is a lunatic pretending to be someOne He's not. The answer is clear for me. Keep in mind that the ruler is a power & prominent Jew who walked away from a poor, despisable & peasant Man (Jesus) very sad because he couldn't accept this demand (which only God can make). Therefore, who's really in control here? Salam Hadji.
10-30-2007, 05:53 AM
Glory to God, peace on earth & goodwill to all. Quote:FHC claims that Christ's ONLY church is the CATHOLIC. do you agree with that claim? are you belongs to the CATHOLIC CHURCH which is according to FHC it is the Christ's ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH? i don't think so, i guess you are protestant and so according to FHC you are not following "<b>Christ's One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church</b>", and according to you FHC is not following the true Church of Jesus which he himself established. Christ established One Church. If Reep received the Sacrament of Baptism validly, then he rightfully belongs in the Body of Christ (the visible Church). A non-Christian who lives a morally good life in accordance with the teachings of Christ, reside in the Church's soul. The One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church is a divine institution with Christ as its Head. Christ, who is God, loves everyone equally & He extends the invitation to all of humanity, not Catholics exclusively.
10-30-2007, 06:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2007, 06:14 AM by Faith Hope Charity.)
Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all. Quote:The fact is, after doing some research on this topic, I found that <b>God Almighty Himself in the OT speaks in polygamous terms</b>, and in my opinion, God will never describe Himself in terms of any example of sins, if polygamy was indeed a sin. In the Old Testament God formed a covenant with His chosen people, the Jews. In the New Testament Jesus forms a covenant with the Church. Both unions are compared to marriage because they are unbreakable. Polygyny is equivalent to idolatry. Both are against God's Will & the Church's ethical teachings. Quote:And now my favorite verse OF THE DAY... Great verse. It's even better when read in the context of the whole passage... 13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." (RSV) Quote:I will be away for about 4 days, insh a Allah will catch up the discussion when i come back. Take longer if you want :D :P ;) Hope everything's okay. Take care!
10-30-2007, 06:38 AM
In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen. May the peace of Christ be with you all. I have a bit more time on my hands today so I'd just like to expound on what I wrote yesterday. Actually, I'd like to type a section from MizAzeez introduction which sheds some light on polygyny according to her understanding. I've also taken on her view because up until now it's the one that makes most sense to me. If we're to continue our discussion on polygyny in Islam, I'd like you to have some idea of where I stand in regards to the teaching (not the issue in general). Here it is, word for word... "<b>But</b> if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), <b>then</b> only one ..." I have bolded the "but" and the "then" to make a grammatical point. But first, clearly Allah (SWT) mentions polygyny first in the Ayah before mentioning monogamy. Secondly, Allah (SWT) mentions monogamy as being conditional upon one fearing he will not be able to do justice. He states that if one fears not being able to deal justly with more than one wife, then he should marry only one. The word "then" implies that what comes after it is secondary upon the conditions that are mentioned before it. This point is very important, for often in discussions about polygyny, people start off with making the point that polygyny is conditional upon the man being able to be just, insinuating that monogamy is of priority and polygyny is secondary. However, if one were to truly look at the Ayah they would see that, in fact, Allah (SWT) mentions polygyny first and then specifies that monogamy is conditional upon one fearing he cannot be just. "You will never be able to do perfectly justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire" ... [W]hat is meant by equality is equality in the division of nights, maintenance and those things which one has control over, but that Insha'Allah he is excused from those things he does not have control over such as love, desire, and sexual intimacy. Thirdly. regarding the notion that polygyny is only permissible during times of war, marriage to widows or if one's wife cannot have children, there is no authentic proof from the Quran or the Sunnah that supports this claim. Lastly, while I was driving my Muslim friend home recently, she mentioned that while drawing up the marriage contract, a woman can request that her husband not engage in polygyny & this will forbid him from it during their lifetime together, however, MizAzeez states that no man is restricted from polygyny, but rather, a woman may place the condition that she'll "divorce" him if he chooses to "take another wife". I just can't remeber where the quote is in her book. So although the above viewpoint is just one of many, for the time being, it's the one I hold, but I'm open to different interpretations, because after all, there is no infallibility attached to the book. God bless.
10-30-2007, 09:17 AM
Quote:Jesus didn't walk around with a sign on his head saying, "Worship Me, I'm the Son of God." He revealed it numerous times but He was always very humble & discreet about it. You see, I have a problem with that interpretation. Your interpretation shows that this type of preaching that was done by Jesus is very unorthodox. With the thought that Jesus is God, his words and actions when preaching completely contradict the style of those that came before him. In the Old Testament, God doesn't play games where He hints that people should worship Him. On the contrary, He made it crystal clear that only He should be worshipped. The prophets too had a similar style. They didn't just imply it. They preached it with all their hearts and with their lives on the line. According to you, Jesus only implied it. Yet, his implications were pointless because nobody understood what he meant. On the other hand, if we were to take the text literally instead of examining the text with presumptions, we could easily see a direct Jesus. Yet, this direct Jesus isn't claiming divinity. His actions are that of a prophet and his calling is to worship God alone. The Bible is a book of guidance is it not? If it is then why can't we accept what is apparent from the text instead of tying things together to suit our beliefs. If God is the author of the Bible, then we should take what is apparent and reject deeper interpretations that conflict with the apparent text. It is apparent from the text to the reader that Jesus rejected the ruler calling him "good". Yet, your interpretation points that Jesus accepted being called "good" and hinted that he was God. Can we say the same to Joseph then? Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants. Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God? These two examples are extremely similar. Can't a Joseph worshipper argue that Joseph is God too? Thoughts? |
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