Ask a Shia

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Hadji, where is the double post, or is it the fast???? I cannt see any..


Well, before Muslimah comes with a lengthy post as usual although her brothers Mash aAllah we capable with Allah\s Close asistance to sum up this crucial issue, Karbala, on the Torbah issue yet again. You said that most of the torbah comes from Karbala. But it is essential any way to perform Salat on Torbah, correct?? does this entail for someone like u living in England to import a torbah from Karbala?? what exactly is the position of one who fails to observe the torbah issue, i mean in terms of validity of Salat??


Waiting..... :)

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Praise be to Allah, prayer and peace be upon our beloved Messenger and teacher Mohamed, and all other Messengers and Prophets.


Insh a Allah I will try to bridge this gap, come to think about it Karbala, there is no conflict between what we say and what u believe, although you didn’t actually state how you understand all those Ayahs. I m interested to know.


All the Ayahs Hadji brought forth contain the words, hands, and fingers, he didn’t even mention the Ayah saying:


“And to Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn yourselves or your faces there is the Face of Allah (and He is High above, over His Throne). Surely! Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knowing. 2:115. (I have a point here but will not discuss it in order to stay on topic).


Leave alone the extremely controversial ayah saying:


And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill Jesus alayhis-salaam], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners. 3:54


Note that the word in Arabic is not Allah planned, but rather it says makarallah which literally means Allah Was Cunning back, or plotted back. What would you say about this? Is it fit for Allah’s Glory to cun, plot, and be foxy?? Hold on. This point in particular is really controversial.


Is it appropriate to say that Allah Adopts such mannerism?


Well, a similar point was raised between me and a coworker, she told me I have some issues with a number of Names and Attributes such as Ajjabar. Which can best be translated as mighty, and simultaneously one Who Mends. It can also give a sense of compelling, forcing, tyranny. She said this is inappropriate to call Allah as such. I told her, in case you faced a situation when someone plotted against you, treated you cunningly or in tyranny, wont u need a superior power that can counter this tyranny and answer back this cunning attitude?? A superpower that you can rely upon and just go to sleep without having to occupy yourself of how to pay them back? For example, when a head of state practices oppression over the people, wont those people be in dire need for a Majestic Power to save them from these practices?? Yes they will and this couldn’t be anyone but Allah The Only Majestic Deity.


In another position Allah Say:


And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return. 3:28


And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment) and Allah is full of Kindness to the (His) slaves. 3:30


In both Ayahs, the part that says against Himself, in Arabic can be understood in both ways, that Allah Warns you against Himself and at the same time Allah Himself Is warning you, how would you feel about this, does Allah Has a self, an ego, a soul??? Certainly not like ours, I mean Allah Is Eternal. But Allah Said so, thus I have to take this in consideration and just busy myself on how to avoid being subject to this warning from Allah.


If you look at the previous Ayahs including those produced by Hajdi, you will see that neither Hadji, me or Ibn Taymiyah (although I have some reservations against him will talk about it later) nor you have a real difference of opinion. If Allah Say in Quran that the skies will be in his closed hand, then it will be, if Allah Say that skies will be wrapped in His right hand, then it will be, if Allah Say (in a hadeeth qudsi) that Allah Descends to the lower sky, then this happens. However, in all of this, how does it happen, we have no idea, and we shouldn’t even try to imagine, does Allah have hands like ours, certainly not may Allah Be Glorified above that, Sobhan Allah a`mayasefoun. Otherwise, if we follow this approach we can really fall into to serious Aqidah issues. To further establish this point, look at Allah’s Name Zaher and Batten. I recall reading in Tafseer Ibn Katheer Ibn Abbas may Allah Be Pleased with him much talking about an Ayah in Surat Al Hadeed, namely:


He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing. 57:3


With all due respect to the translator, however, the Name Dhaher is not Most High and the Batten is not the Most near. But rather, the former is you can say apparent, openly expressed, proved in the sense of that Allah Is Quite apparent thru each and every aspect and part in Allah’s Creation, you can also say the Clear, the Obvious, as opposed to Batten which is although Allah Is Obvious and Manifest in each and every inch of this universe, yet it is impossible to be realized using our sight. Thus Allah Is at the same time is the Interior. This is the best I can translate Battern.


In this Ayah, Ibn Abbas said, because the word Batten gives the sense of inner, interior..etc. if I explain to you what does this mean, you might loose faith. But we can understand it now.


In a nutshell, both you and us karbala agree on a main ground, let me verify this with you, that Allah there is nothing Like Him, correct? Since there is nothing like Him, yet Allah In His True word the Quran Tells about himself few things that we are so concerned to establish them as they are lest we will fall into blasphemy, or shall not be paying due respect to Allah, you are correct in this, we too have the same concern and worry, but we do say those things are there in a manner that are unknown to us. That we cannt comprehend since simultaneously they form parts of the noble Ayahs. On the other hand, if one – I seek refuge to Allah – say that Allah istawa on the throne after creating the universe in 6 days, I mean like the Jews saying that Allah Rested on the 7th, this is what can be called open Anthropomorphism. Or that Allah Forgets..etc.


I have no idea where did you get this from,


Look at statements like:


QUOTE


Confirmation of Allah's possessing two Hands, right and left


but also to stress a point,


What further proves this fact, commenting on the hadeeth reported by Musnad Ahmed:


Narrated under the authority of Abdullah Ibn Amr Ibn Al A`s:


That the Mesenger salla Allah a`lyehee wa sallam said those who are just on the Day of Resurrection Allah Shall Seat them on pulpits made of light located to the right side of ArRahman may He be Glorified and both of His Hands are right, those who are being just in their judgment, with their household and those who are under their guardianship.


Note that the hadeeth stresses that both of Allah’s Hands are right. See, it is a stage that we all went through, which is to reach a point when we cannt grasp how Allah Is. Thus, as my brothers suggested here the best thing is to stop when the mind stops. Our minds shall never be able to reach the unreachable.


As for Ibn Taymeiah saying that Allah Descends to the lower sky just exactly as I descend off the pulpit, this is I think an exaggerating attitude. He shouldn’t say this, out of respect to Allah, he shouldn’t even exemplify, but rather explain as much as possible because he does not know how exactly does Allah Descend. Can anyone of us know how Allah Created Adam, yes we know that Allah Said be and he was, but I mean how Did Allah Say this? No we don’t. there are areas when we should stop in order not to turn as those who are Ashabel kalam who kept themselves and the Ummah busy with issues which had no benefit except to the enemies of the Ummah. Ibn Taymiah is not protected against making mistakes. But the above mentioned hadeeth shows exactly that even with Allah explaining in Quran how Allah grasps in His Right hand the skies, or how Allah contains in his handful, how about when Allah Say:


You are in our eyes??? Or you will be raised and protected according to what my eye accept?? Note that in one Ayah Allah Used plural and the other Allah Used singular.


Well, come to think about it, all these issues brother categorize under :


It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the verses of commandments, obligatory duties and legal punishments]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. 3:7.


Those issues fall under the points of hidden meanings, which people may differ regarding their understanding. However, we all must observe one point, that in all of those descriptions which Allah Gave to Himself, and established by Ayahs and not hadeeth, we must take them using the rule of nothing Like Allah.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah

Salam,


Hadji you actually believe Allah is in the sky? I would like you to clearly state your belief regarding


You people cannot seriously believe these fantasies????!!!!

Although Hajdi already replied to you Karbala regarding this point, which I feel actually the best reply me myself on the personal basis can agree with coupled with the further explanation of wael. However, did you read:


Do you feel secure that He, <b>Who is over the heaven </b> (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?


Or do you feel secure that He, <b>Who is over the heaven </b> (Allah), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning?


Quran 67: 16-17


Mind you, the Arabic text says One Who Is in Sky.


I will just stop here.

[Karbala]

:bismillah:


This anthropomorphism issue seems to hav become a play on semantics. I interpret phrases like "arsh" "hands" etc to be metaphorical.

You said that most of the torbah comes from Karbala. But it is essential any way to perform Salat on Torbah, correct?? does this entail for someone like u living in England to import a torbah from Karbala?? what exactly is the position of one who fails to observe the torbah issue, i mean in terms of validity of Salat??

The torbah does NOT have to come from karbala. One can pray on anything which is earth or comes from the earth e.g. mud, wood, leaves etc etc.

[Hadji]

Greetings Karbala,


I'm glad that you are still here. You were gone for a while and I had my doubts about you coming back.

I interpret phrases like "arsh" "hands" etc to be metaphorical.

When someone takes verses about the attributes of Allah (swt) as metaphorical, it is as if the person is nullifying what Allah (swt) has established about Himself.


Do you take it metaphorical just because you cannot comprehend it?


Another problem with taking such issues as metaphorical is that it opens a pandora's box. One can now argue that every verse, no matter how concrete, should still be interpreted. Islam fails as a religion if everything is open to interpretation though. Something that is forbidden can be said to be forbidden only for the specific time of the Prophet (pbuh) and should be permissable for later generations because we have progressed.

One can pray on anything which is earth or comes from the earth e.g. mud, wood, leaves etc etc.

That includes carpets that are found in masjids, right? I sometimes see Shi'ites praying on tissues. There is no error in that, am I correct?

[Karbala]

Salam,


Sorry for delay in replying. My Medical Training has kicked into full swing which means no time for internet. You will probably find me replying on weekends when I have some time.


As far as metaphorical language is concerned in the Quran I dont think it is uncommon e.g. backkbiting metaphor of eating your dead brothers flesh.


I take phrases like Allahs hands to be metaphorical because to ascribe any sort of form to Allah goes against every logic and even the Quran itself.


Praying on tissues. Yes I have seen it to. I dont really understand the logic behind that to be honest. Most tissues like Kleenex are synthetic and therefore you cannot exactly pray on them. But some are natural like paper tissues so I guess it would be permissable. I dont know precisely.

[Hadji]

As far as metaphorical language is concerned in the Quran I dont think it is uncommon e.g. backkbiting metaphor of eating your dead brothers flesh.

Don't take my words out of context. I never said that there isn't any metaphorical language in the Qur'an. Please re-read my previous post.

I take phrases like Allahs hands to be metaphorical because to ascribe any sort of form to Allah goes against every logic and even the Quran itself.

So, should we say that the hands of a clock are metaphorical as well? Allah (swt) states that He has hands. Who are we to say, "He doesn't have hands, He probably meant something else?!"

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Karbala,


Alright I will seize the weekend chance.


Let me see and make it easier for you. Majroty of Shira do use Torbah for performing Salah.


Most of the Torbah comes from Karbala:


1. How valid it is Salah if performed without Torbah??


2. how does using Karbala Torbah affect (increase, improve, better validate Salah)?


3. What does Karbala represent to you or any other shia?


Regarding the metaphore issue. I will take it that you are over concerned to fall into slandering Allah, while we take it that we are concerned to say other than what Allah (Himself) not us, Say in Quran... Not understanding what they are, how they look like, is totally different.


I leave it here because actually all this is ghayb, just like Jannah, Juhannum, Qlam, Lawuh..etc. May Allah Allow us to maintain Tawheed ameen.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Although you didnt reply to the raised point Karbala, but i will take your stuides in consideration plus Ramadan is coming to an end.


However, just to sum up more points so that you may come up with replies in due time.


You and I being muslims are in agreement that our beloved Messenger, leader, and teacher prayer and peace be upon him and all other Prophets and Messengers never said thing out of his own desire. Nor did he marry out of his own desires, his marriages were all commanded by Allah. The marriage of Zainab Bint Jahash was even brought into an Ayah Mash a Allah, (may Allah Be Pleased with her), even mannersim of having food at his house, during Walima all was brought in Quran. Thus, he didnt attempt to those marriages out of his own personal choices for any manly or human desires. Those marriages were arranged by Allah Sobhanhu wa Taala.


Under the previously mentioned, do you think for a momnet that Allah (astaghferullah) Would Make a decision that is incorrect? you think that Shia Ulema know better than Allah when they curse Abu Bakr and Omar at the beginning of their lessons. Those two who are the fathers of two of the Messenger's wives? You think Allah Would Accept for His Messenger prayer and peace be upon him to marrage daughters of not worthy men, or men who are described by a long list of bad adjectives???


Waiting for your reply that is based on reasoning as you manifested.


From here we can continue on the other major points I still have to discuss with u and I really care to very much.

[Karbala]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Karbala,


Alright I will seize the weekend chance.


Let me see and make it easier for you. Majroty of Shira do use Torbah for performing Salah.


Most of the Torbah comes from Karbala:


1. How valid it is Salah if performed without Torbah??


2. how does using Karbala Torbah affect (increase, improve, better validate Salah)?


3. What does Karbala represent to you or any other shia?


Regarding the metaphore issue. I will take it that you are over concerned to fall into slandering Allah, while we take it that we are concerned to say other than what Allah (Himself) not us, Say in Quran... Not understanding what they are, how they look like, is totally different.


I leave it here because actually all this is ghayb, just like Jannah, Juhannum, Qlam, Lawuh..etc. May Allah Allow us to maintain Tawheed ameen.

1. Not vaild for us.


2. Prostrating on torbah from Karbala neither improves, increases or better validates Salat, this is entirely dependant on the heart. The soil from Karbala is simply sacred to us, just as it was sacred to the Prophet(saw), and it is reported that the Imams used to keep dust from Karbala with them to pray on. We prostrate on it out of reverence and respect.


3. That is a very very deep question. Karbala is the heart and soul of my philosophy on life. As the famous saying goes.... Kullu Yom Ashura wa Kullu Ardh Karbala, Everyday is Ashura and every Land is Karbala.