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wel_mel_2 · 09-27-2007, 04:23 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Our new member "fisher of men" forces me to start this thread after reading his analogy when he was trying to explain Trinity, so I thought to collect most of the "Trinity analogies" that were invented by Christians to examine them, and insh a Allah to refute each and every one of them. So here we go... BISMILLAH.

Analogy #1: (as explained by "fisher of men" On this thread.

Quote:* Consider the molecules of water, H20. Now also consider the different forms this same molecule may take. Ice, water, and steam. Each are different in their own ways, have different characteristics and each serve different purposes

I do agree that water will remain always water even in three separate forms (i.e. Ice, water, and steam) but please bear in mind that we know very well that the component of water remains the same as well in all the three states , H2O/ 2 atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen. Only the forms keep on changing, but the component of water remain the same. The question now is, are the constituents of the persons in the Trinity are same? Obviously NOT.

1- God Almighty and the Holy Spirit are made of Spirit but Jesus is made of flesh and bone (the component is not the same)

2- Jesus needed to eat in order to survive, God the Father does not require to eat at all (they are not the same)

3- If by any chance, one of the components of water was removed, then it is not WATER anymore. Are you trying to tell us that when Jesus died on the Cross, there was no GOD anymore?

Analogy # 2:

Quote:Time is past, present, and future. There are not three times

Christians usually say, the Father IS GOD, Jesus IS GOD, and the Holy Ghost IS GOD, on the other hand, we cannot not say that the past IS TIME, or present IS TIME etc… but rather we say, past is PART OF TIME
. But Christians never say that Jesus is PART OF GOD. Ask any Christian the question "is Jesus God" ? They will never say no he is only part of God, they will simply say, "Yes he is God"

So shortly, this analogy might work if Christians would say that Jesus is PART OF GOD, the Father is PART OF GOD, and Holy Ghost is PART OF GOD, but this is not what they believe, they say The Father is GOD, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.

And by the way, since Jesus is not the Father, and the Father is not Jesus, then please count with me how many Gods have we got?..... Two
is the correct answer. But Christians trying hard to prove that they worship only one God; we can agree with them insh a Allah if they start practicing what they preach. 

Back to TIME. We do not have 3 times but ONE TIME, but the past alone is NOT time, present alone is NOT TIME, etc... And so if Christians decides one day to say that Jesus IS NOT God, then we could easily use this analogy to explain Trinity, but the fact is that there is no Trinitarian would ever dare to declare that Jesus is NOT FULLY God.

Analogy#3:



Quote:I am a father, a brother and a husband at the same time. ONE AND THE SAME PERSON.

It is true, I can see myself in this example (Father, brother and husband)... Now the question here to Trinitarians is this:

Q: if I (as a brother for example
) told my sister a secret, will I (as a Father and Husband
) know that secret?

A: Naturally I say YES. But the case with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is totally different. The knowledge of the last Day was left to the Father ONLY, which means that the Son and the Holy Ghost are not knowledgeable enough to know the SECRET and the time of the Last Day. So how can you call any of them God?

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
.

Analogy# 4:

Quote:Family of God: I am a father, one person, my wife is another person and our son the third person in our family, we are only ONE FAMILY and not three.

Well, that makes sense ONLY if you will not bear another child. Once you have another kid, then God becomes four
, just like that. So my advise to Christians not to use this analogy.

Analogy# 5:

Quote:An egg. (Shell, yolk and white, ONE EGG).

The problem is that according to Christians, each of the persons within the Trinity is fully God, so they failed to realize that the yolk does not possess the fullness of the egg; neither do the white or the shell. 

IMAGINE how Christians trying to prove their belief!!!!


So let us make it simple for our Christian friends who would like to explain the Trinity.

You must describe Trinity following three simple rules which you are promoting and preaching to Non Trinitarians. THEY ARE:

1- God is unique is His Oneness. 

2- Each person of the Trinity is FULLY GOD.

3- And the Trinity itself is ETERNAL.

So, bring one analogy that can match with ALL the above points, or admit that this trinity is full of confusion. and as you know, God Almighty IS NOT the author of confusion as the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 14:33. and so in conclusion I would say that this Trinity dogma has nothing to do with God Almighty.

For more discussions on Islam and Christianity, please visit this thread.

INTERESTING TOPICS.

Salam

Wael.

***Muslimah*** · 09-27-2007, 04:44 AM

Bismillah

as salam alykom brother,

Jazakum Allah khairan for starting this thread.

Well, fisher as i told you on the other thread I really thank u so much for making the H2 o anology, made difference. We are aware that the three forms shall remain basically water. But H2o as u are aware needs 3 components to turn into H2o. In case any of the three components is missing, H2o shall no longer exist, does this apply to god as well? The 3 persona makes one god, what if one person is missing, god is no longer there. Just exactly as the one and only one family consists of father, mother and son. Any member of the family is missed, the one family is no longer one family but a missing family. Thus, in case of H2o the three components are essential to form it, the ingredients are basics. According to you, god cannt be god in case any of the 3 persons is missing?? hope we made sense to u...

And I hope u follow the link as Wael gave u on that other thread.

fisher of men · 10-03-2007, 02:39 PM

Hello Wel_mel_2, sorry for the late response. My overall reply to your analysis of the H2O analogy is that Jesus is both human and divine.

1. On your first point: Although the Father and the Holy Spirit are made of spirit, they take on different forms of a spirit, just as Jesus took on the form of a human, made of flesh and bone. However, he also has a divine nature, seen in his ability to heal the sick, forgive sins, and rise form the dead, thus he shares the common divine nature that all three persons of the Trinity possess, making him God.

2. On your second point: Jesus also shares human habits. He chose to eat to survive, for if he did not eat how could we claim that he was a man. In order to show his third person he had to show his human nature and assimilate with humans, and did so by eating earthly food in order to survive. Nevertheless, while he did eat food, he did rise from the dead, an action only God can perform, showing his divine common quality with God the father and Holy Spirit.

3. On you third point: Firstly, Jesus is not a component of water, he is a form H2O (water) can take.

When Jesus died both his body and spirit were still existent, his body had merely performed a human function, showing his human nature, that he died. However, the flesh and bones were still existent, and so was his spirit and divine nature. As seen in the Apostles Creed which states after he died that “He descended into hell”. The existance of his divine nature is still evident as he rose from the dead. So in order to show that Jesus had been removed and hence no more God, you must show that both his human and divine nature ceased to exist.

***Muslimah*** · (This post was last modified: 10-04-2007, 12:36 AM by Muslimah.)

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Welcome back Fisher, hope u had a good time with the family.

Now, till I get back to you on the H2o anology.

[color=#663333]seen in his ability to heal the sick, forgive sins, and rise form the dead.[/color]

This statement - I take it - stands for the divinity of Jesus. Was he able to continue performing those activities while he was dead, having you said that he died in human form but not in divine. As u said his bones and flesh and spirit were still existent (not sure then what exactly died in him but anyway).

The most important question that I asked before but didnt get quite an answer, quoting you those activities are proof to his divinity, I agree with you healing the sick special leprosy is miraculous and he also was able to tell people what they had for food and what they save in their houses

But how forgiving sins is performed? I mean how one can confirm that he was forgiving. As far as I understand, logicallly speaking, this is supposed to be evident only in the Day of Judgment.

But the most important, to be divine, there is one action that no one can perform except a divine nature, that is creation. Did Jesus (pls note, follow and focus) create anything even a fly right in front of the naked eyes of his people while he was in his human form?? I mean did he besides healing the sick, making dead rise back to life, just came and said alright today I m going to create an ant, a fly, a rock anything just anything right in front of the people???

Hadji · 10-04-2007, 06:27 AM

Quote:seen in his ability to heal the sick, forgive sins, and rise form the dead.

None of this stuff here are divine works. None are specific to Jesus either.

Raising the dead:

"Then he cried out to the LORD , "O LORD my God, have you brought tragedy also upon this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD , "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!" The LORD heard Elijah's cry, and the boy's life returned to him, and he lived. Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, "Look, your son is alive!" 1 Kings 17:20-23

"Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz." 2 Kings 13:20-22

Elisha raised the dead.

Forgiving sins:

"Again he said, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you." Then he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

The disciples forgave sins.

Quote:Jesus (pls note, follow and focus) create anything even a fly right in front of the naked eyes of his people while he was in his human form??

Yes, technically, he did create when he turned the clay into a bird. Yet, the same can be said to Moses when he turned the cane to a snake.

How do we deal with this problem? According to what we have so far, not only are we talking about the divinity of Jesus, but that of Elisha, Moses, and the disciples. The answer lies in the Qur'an:

(3:49)

And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

Yes, all these miracles are from Allah (swt). Without His permission, none of those actions could have taken place:

(2:117)

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

***Muslimah*** · 10-04-2007, 07:01 PM

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Jazakum Allah khairan Hadji, however, fisher I will still wait for your reply. For the sake of argument, although Hadji introduced what explains how those acts are not an evidence for divinity. let us say they are since you take them as such. Was Jesus capable to continue performing those actions while in the belly of earth and dead????

fisher of men · 10-06-2007, 03:07 PM

To your first argument Muslimah, if one person of the Trinity is missing, God is no longer existent. The theologian James M. Arlandson states the reason for this to be that the Trinity “is not one-third, plus one-third, plus one-third. In addition, the three persons are not added on to God’s essence or being, as if they are tacked on to the outside of God. Rather, all three persons share the same essence, fully God in one being, in total and perfect unity.”

I will get back to your and wel_mel_2’s other opinions in due course.

***Muslimah*** · 10-06-2007, 07:41 PM

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Thank u fisher for getting back to me, I fully understand that u need sometime to respond. We too are in a very busy time during the last 10 days of Ramadan. However, u actually didnt answer this point:

let us say they are since you take them as such. Was Jesus capable to continue performing those actions while in the belly of earth and dead????

As you said, he was dead, but his bones, flesh and spirit remained alive, thus, he conquered death. While he was buried in earth for 3 days, was he able to continue performing those duties I d call it, so long as you take them as divine, thus, they are duties of God. Was he???

Just this point before you search for the rest and I will still make another comment regarding the three components issue. I m just trying to take it easy and step by step with u to avoid you being overwhelmed.

:)

wel_mel_2 · 10-08-2007, 02:36 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:1. On your first point: Although the Father and the Holy Spirit are made of spirit, they take on different forms of a spirit, just as Jesus took on the form of a human, made of flesh and bone. However, he also has a divine nature, seen in his ability to heal the sick, forgive sins, and rise form the dead, thus he shares the common divine nature that all three persons of the Trinity possess, making him God.

I guess brother Hadji already responded to this point, which proves that none of Jesus' miracles were unique according to the Bible, and none of them prove that he was divine.

Quote:2. On your second point: Jesus also shares human habits. He chose to eat to survive, for if he did not eat how could we claim that he was a man. In order to show his third person he had to show his human nature and assimilate with humans, and did so by eating earthly food in order to survive. Nevertheless, while he did eat food, he did rise from the dead, an action only God can perform, showing his divine common quality with God the father and Holy Spirit.

It seems now that everything is clear, Jesus shares divine attributes, and shares human habits, but amazingly you're still telling me that Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY human. How is it possible for one who is FULLY GOD to share His own attributes as God with somebody else? the moment God shares His qualities with somebody else, He is no longer FULLY GOD.

Quote:3. On you third point: Firstly, Jesus is not a component of water, he is a form H2O (water) can take.
When Jesus died both his body and spirit were still existent, his body had merely performed a human function, showing his human nature, that he died. However, the flesh and bones were still existent, and so was his spirit and divine nature. As seen in the Apostles Creed which states after he died that “He descended into hell”. The existance of his divine nature is still evident as he rose from the dead. So in order to show that Jesus had been removed and hence no more God, you must show that both his human and divine nature ceased to exist.

Well, we don't really argue much about Jesus being dead or alive, we believe that he is alive alive alive. The argument here is about Trinity which makes no sense according to the analogies Christian gives. I advise you to read the thread "Jesus and Jonah" to get more information about Jesus being dead or alive in the heart of the earth.

Salam

Wael.

fisher of men · 10-09-2007, 01:20 PM

Muslimah, this is answer to the following point you made;



Was Jesus capable to continue performing those actions while in the belly of earth and dead????

Jesus could do anything that he wanted while buried. While dead he performed the greatest miracle – he rose himself from the dead. By performing this miracle, even though he was physically lifeless, shows that he was still able to “perform those duties”. If Jesus wished to perform those other miraculous actions while in the tomb, he could have, however he was to fulfill scripture and remain dormant for three days, then raise himself. It was through this miracle, that he not only proved to all that he was God, and that he had also conquered death.

Hope my explaination was clear,

Love The Fisher of Men

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