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AlShamms · (This post was last modified: 09-08-2007, 05:19 AM by AlShamms.)

Peace.....

Hadji, I'm not surprised that you don't see the connection.

(1 Corinthians 1:22-24)

(22) For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

(23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

(24) But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It's something that has to be revealed to you. But since the question was asked, I answered.

In as far as the Catholics go, their idea of "transubstantiation", meaning the bread and wine becoming the literal body and blood of Christ is heresy and has no grounding in scripture....just more paganism that they've added to their religion. But that is a conversation for another day.

Shamms

AlShamms · 09-08-2007, 05:34 AM

Peace.....

And by the way, most of what Christ said was figurative as he spoke in parables. For instance:

(Matthew 13:10-14)

(10) And coming near, the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?

(11) And answering, He said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to those.

(12) For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have overabundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

(13) Because of this, I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

(14) And the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled on them, which says, "In hearing you will hear and in no way understand, and seeing you will see yet in no way perceive.

:) See Wael, I'm smiling......

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · 09-08-2007, 05:48 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Bismillah

as salam alykom

O welcome back Hadji, alright, let me see if I understood correctly the point here, mind you I m not knowlegable in the bible. I m just trying to use my mind.

So the whole point here and the prophecy= miracle is Eassa salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam (prayer and peace be upon him) making an anology of his situation with that of Johan??? is this the point?? forelling that he will remain the belly of earth just as Johan stayed in the belly of the whale?

My dear sister, the topic of Jonah doesn’t need anyone to be knowledgeable in the Bible, all what you need to do is to obtain the Bible in Arabic language and read the book of Jonah then read what Jesus said in regards to Jonah in the gospel of Matthew chapter 12. Here I produce the verses from my Arabic Bible for your reference sister, see how strong and specific Jesus was when he refers to the miracle of Jonah to be HIS ONLY SIGN/MIRACLE. 

إِنْجِيلُ مَتَّى / الأصحَاحُ الثَّانِي عَشَرَ
38حِينَئِذٍ أَجَابَ قَوْمٌ مِنَ الْكَتَبَةِ وَالْفَرِّيسِيِّينَ قَائِلِينَ:«يَا مُعَلِّمُ، نُرِيدُ أَنْ نَرَى مِنْكَ آيَةً». 39فَأَجابَ وَقَالَ لَهُمْ:«جِيلٌ شِرِّيرٌ وَفَاسِقٌ يَطْلُبُ آيَةً، وَلاَ تُعْطَى لَهُ آيَةٌ إِلاَّ آيَةَ يُونَانَ النَّبِيِّ. 40لأَنَّهُ كَمَا كَانَ يُونَانُ فِي بَطْنِ الْحُوتِ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ وَثَلاَثَ لَيَال، هكَذَا يَكُونُ ابْنُ الإِنْسَانِ فِي قَلْب الأَرْضِ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ وَثَلاَثَ لَيَال.

The word HAKAZA is the key here, and for Arabic speaking people, they do not require any explanation at all.

It’s very simple, Jonah survived when he was thrown into the sea, he survived the tempest in a huge ocean, then he survived for three days and three nights when he was eaten by the whale, he was a live alive alive, this is a miracle of a miracle of a miracle… so if anyone else came to tell me that Jesus was dead, then we could easily say that he was unlike Jonah, and that he failed to fulfill the only prophecy that he gave to the Jews to prove that he was the awaited Christ. 

Shamms, to equate the fear of Jonah by the death of Jesus is truly lame, people of that time understood the words DAY and NIGHT perfectly, they also knew what happened to Jonah very well. So to say that the Jews understood that part of the day could be counted as DAY AND NIGHT altogether is lame, moreover, you are going straight against what your Bible said, because: "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night . . . " Genesis 1:5

Now, Jesus never experiences any darkness on Sunday, HE WAS NOT TO BE FOUND EARLY MORNING and so you cannot count that “early morning” as a night, not even Einstein could help you on this.

But the interesting thing is that God Himself in that verse gives the meaning of the word day, (the light called Day) = we know that the light during the day last for about 12 hours, (darkness was called Night) = 12 hours. So ONE DAY, since the very beginning was understood as 24 hours day and not just part of the day.

However, if I followed your theory, you still have a serious problem of SUNDAY which is not possible for anyone to count it as ONE NIGHT, you still have a problem of Jonah who was alive, and Jesus who was dead according to you.

FOR AS JONAH WAS, SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE.

لأَنَّهُ كَمَا كَانَ يُونَانُ فِي بَطْنِ الْحُوتِ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ وَثَلاَثَ لَيَال، هكَذَا يَكُونُ ابْنُ الإِنْسَانِ فِي قَلْب الأَرْضِ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ وَثَلاَثَ لَيَال.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · 09-08-2007, 06:01 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Peace.....

Hadji, I'm not surprised that you don't see the connection.

(1 Corinthians 1:22-24)

(22) For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

(23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

(24) But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It's something that has to be revealed to you. But since the question was asked, I answered.

Shamms

It is very kind of you to answer, although "your answer was not really convincing so far" . However, we appreciate your inputs.

Now, the verses you have quoted from Corinthians (The words of Paul) are not relevant at all, we are not asking Jesus for miracles anymore, we are only examining together whether he fulfilled the prophecy that he gave to the Jews or not, but definitely, according to the Bible, he failed.

Now we don’t believe as Muslims that Jesus is a failure, we only say that there is something seriously wrong in your Bible.

I am only smiling by the way. :D

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · (This post was last modified: 09-08-2007, 06:10 AM by AlShamms.)

Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

My dear sister, the topic of Jonah doesn’t need anyone to be knowledgeable in the Bible, all what you need to do is to obtain the Bible in Arabic language and read the book of Jonah then read what Jesus said in regards to Jonah in the gospel of Matthew chapter 12.

Peace......

Here we go. Wael, you telling someone they don't need to be knowledgeable in something to understand that thing is the height of ignorance and arrogance. If I were to tell a christian the exact same thing as pertaining to the qur'an you'd take issue with it...probably bring up that tired argument about how the qur'an (or topics therein) cannot be understood unless the person reads it in it's native arabic and has a proper understanding of the language. But here you sit, a non-believer, trying to tell another non-believer, that they don't need to be knowledgeable in the Bible to understand it.

This topic as far as I'm concerned is done. You asked about the prophecy, we discussed the prophecy, you don't get the prophecy...let's just move on.

Like I quoted in the last verse.....the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.

Shamms

AlShamms · 09-08-2007, 06:16 AM

Peace....

Yes, the letter to the saints in Corinth was written by Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ. How can you say Christ failed something you don't understand?

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · 09-08-2007, 06:20 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Peace......
Here we go. Wael, you telling someone they don't need to be knowledgeable in something to understand that thing is the height of ignorance and arrogance.

You should stick to the topic and try to give us some logical replies instead of picking up some faults in my statements to sister Muslimah.

I guess you knew well what i was trying to say, I am saying plainly that Jonah’s topic is very simple and doesn’t need someone to be a scholar of the Bible to understand his story, even kids of any Sunday school can relate the story of Jonah. This is exactly what I meant.

Quote:This topic as far as I'm concerned is done. You asked about the prophecy, we discussed the prophecy, you don't get the prophecy...let's just move on.
Like I quoted in the last verse.....the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.

The topic is done since post#1

and by the way, I was not asking questions in the first place, I was presenting a case which is crystal clear, I didn’t intend to have a long thread to debate you or anyone, it’s your duty now to sit down and think about this problem and make up your mind.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · 09-08-2007, 06:27 AM

Quote:Peace....

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Yes, the letter to the saints in Corinth was written by Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ. How can you say Christ failed something you don't understand?

Shamms

Again, the matter does not require genius to understand. He failed more than once in this single prophecy.

- He said he will be like Jonah in his grave, Jonah was alive, Jesus according to you was dead, so he was UNLIKE JONAH AND NOT AS JONAH WAS, and so prophecy is not fulfilled.

- He said he will be staying three days and three nights as Jonah was, and again he was not able to fulfill this simple mathematical “miracle”.

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 09-08-2007, 06:30 AM

Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

You should stick to the topic and try to give us some logical replies instead of picking up some faults in my statements to sister Muslimah.

I guess you knew well what i was trying to say, I am saying plainly that Jonah’s topic is very simple and doesn’t need someone to be a scholar of the Bible to understand his story, even kids of any Sunday school can relate the story of Jonah. This is exactly what I meant.

Peace.....

Wael, you're absolutely correct, children can relate to the story of Jonah and the fish. However, to understand what the Bible calls the "deep things of God" requires the Spirit of God to reveal them to you.

Quote:The topic is done since post#1

and by the way, I was not asking questions in the first place, I was presenting a case which is crystal clear, I didn’t intend to have a long thread to debate you or anyone, it’s your duty now to sit down and think about this problem and make up your mind.

Salam

Wael.

As far as I'm concerned there is no problem, as I said, you don't understand Biblical prophecy and my mind is already made up

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · 09-08-2007, 06:36 AM

Quote:Peace.....

Wael, you're absolutely correct, children can relate to the story of Jonah and the fish. However, to understand what the Bible calls the "deep things of God" requires the Spirit of God to reveal them to you.

I start to believe strongly that you are a funny person, :)

Let us consider Genesis 1… In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… what is so ‘deep’ about this simple statement? Does this simple and straight forward statement requires “the spirit of God” to make me understand? It is very clear to me, i dont know if you need the holy ghost to clarify such verse. What is so vague about Jesus’ statement regarding Jonah? I can see no difficulty at all. So I guess you need to pray hard to find that guidance. Insh a Allah one day you will find it.

Salam

Wael.

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