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Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all.
Quote:Oh? I thought that not believing in the crucifixion means that you don't believe in the sacrifice of Christ. Isn't believing in Christ's sacrifice the only way to be saved?
Salam Hadji :peace:
That's not necessarily true in Catholicism. Here's a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (official teaching)...
<b>1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. </b>
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm
Remember, there's only One Judge that determines who's saved & who's condemned. Our job is to pray for the conversion of sinners.
God bless.
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Quote:Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.
Well, that makes sense.
Does this apply to the Gentiles that came before Christ alone, or does this still work today?
What do you mean the "Gospel of Christ"? I'm not aware of any Gospel with that name, or do you mean the good news of Christ, or do you mean the four Gospels? How can one be ignorant to them?
I'm sorry... I've been told I sometimes ask a lot of questions.
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In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.
May the Peace of Christ be with you!
Quote:Does this apply to the Gentiles that came before Christ alone, or does this still work today?
Every human being is judged according to what they know & how they respond to their conscience. Before Christ's work of Redemption, the gates of Heaven were closed, therefore, deceased souls remained in what we call "Abraham's Bosom" until Christ rose from the dead & assumed the righteous with Him into His Fathers Kingdom. Before Christ, the Jews & Gentiles has partial truth. It was completed & fulfilled with the establishment of the <b>New & Everlasting</b> Covenant.
Quote:What do you mean the "Gospel of Christ"? I'm not aware of any Gospel with that name, or do you mean the good news of Christ, or do you mean the four Gospels? How can one be ignorant to them?
Gospel means "Good News". Christ is the Gospel. The 4 Gospels in the Holy Bible are a narration of the time the Son of God was made incarnate & dwelt among us until the time He ascended into Heaven. They are the heart of Sacred Scripture.
Quote:I'm sorry... I've been told I sometimes ask a lot of questions.
No need to apologize. Ask away! I'm glad I could help :) I just prefer not to get too carried away with discussions about Christianity on an Islamic forum.
Take care & God bless.
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Peace.....
I know I've been away for a very long time and often times I say I won't post here again. But I feel FHC does the muslims here a disservice by not properly quoting the Bible.
The question at hand....can a person be a muslim and a christian at the same time. EMPHATICALLY NO!! To be a christian means to believe in the teaching, diety, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as presented in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Christ himself said:
(John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(John 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
If one does not believe in the crucifixion and bodily resurrection of Christ (which was foretold would happen in the Old Testament and was recorded in the New, then according to Christ they are condemned already. But see, that is the problem with Catholics, quick to tell you what the Pope says but slow to tell you what thus saith the Lord.
Shamms
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Bismillah
as salam alykom
OO Shamms welcome back, i m here just to welcome u back and execuse me for being off topic, but why dont u want to post here again????
However, I fully agree with u, one can never be a Muslims and a Christian simultaneously. Being a Muslim is believing in the One true Allah Who Is not made of parts, was not begoten nor Did He Begoten anyone. Thus, the fundamental belief of Christianity is in total disagreement with the fundamental and basic belief in the Oneness of Allah Who Is not obliged to have any incarnates.
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Peace
Hey Muslimah, thanks for the welcome back. The reason why I say sometimes that I won't post here again is because often times this board makes me feel like :banghead: and :angry2: ....especially after some of the circular discussions with Wel. <_< It's just that sometimes I don't feel that there is any true understanding gained about what christians believe. However as I said, I think sometimes I do more harm than good by my silence. So when I read FHC say it's alright for the female priest (the Bible also forbids female pastors, muslims would call them Imams) to also be a muslim I had to respond. Who knows, I might stay around for a lil while, see what topics I can contribute to.
Shamms
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09-04-2007, 02:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2007, 02:44 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Welcome back Shamms and nice to see you here again… I hope you were not posting because of me :P :P :P
Here is a quick question: you said:
Quote:If one does not believe in the crucifixion and bodily resurrection of Christ (<b>which was foretold would happen in the Old Testament</b> and was recorded in the New, then according to Christ they are condemned already. But see, that is the problem with Catholics, quick to tell you what the Pope says but slow to tell you what thus saith the Lord.
The Bible says:
Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, <b>which were written in the law of Moses, and
in the prophets, and
in the psalms, concerning me. </b>
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Where it was exactly written in the Law of Moses, Psalms and
in the Prophets' writings that <b>Jesus will be raised from the dead on the third day?</b>
Please pay attention to the emphasizes in <b>bold</b>, big letters and red color
.
By the way, I do agree with you that Catholics quote the Pope or traditional writings more/instead of Biblical references.
Salam
Wael.
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09-04-2007, 12:15 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2007, 12:20 PM by AlShamms.)
Peace....
See, that's the reason why I said I feel like :banghead: Wel, you try to paint me into a corner with the question you ask. You want to see specifically where the words "raised from the dead on the third day" are located in the Old Testament. I find it interesting that so fine a point would be placed on the matter. Why do you need to see those words specifically to believe? I ask you, why so specific a question? Is it because you already know that the Old Testament foretells Christ's coming and cruxifiction, and you look for some small point on which to base your denial of Christ's atonement?
Alright, you'd like to see where it is written in the law, psalms and prophets concerning Christ? I'll show you, however if you do not understand prophecy, the fault is not mine.
1. From the Law
(Leviticus 16:20-22)
(20) And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
(21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(22) And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
New Testament
(1 Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
2. From the Psalms
(Psalms 22:16) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
New Testament
(John 20:25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
3. From the Prophets
(Jonah 1:17) Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
New Testament
(Matthew 12:40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Wel, I hope this helps you to understand verses like:
(Luke 24:44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
And also verses like
(Luke 24:25-27)
(25) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
(26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Shamms
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Salaam Shamms,
I also wanted to say welcome back and thanks for your contributions. That's all :)
Take care
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09-05-2007, 05:56 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2007, 06:00 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Thanks Shamms for your reply, please no need to be angry, it is not my intention at all to make you or anyone else angry, but sometimes people gets emotional when talking about beliefs, so let me comment on your last post.
Quote:you try to paint me into a corner with the question you ask. You want to see specifically where the words "raised from the dead on the third day" are located in the Old Testament. I find it interesting that so fine a point would be placed on the matter. Why do you need to see those words specifically to believe? I ask you, why so specific a question?
The reason for my specific question is because Jesus' pbuh words were so specific as well, he said to his people,<b> IT IS WRITTEN</b>, that Christ will suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day, was he not so specific when he said those words? So why can't we find any verse that supports his declaration? This is my only intention for asking such explicit question, because Jesus pbuh himself was so specific when he said his words.
Quote:Is it because you already know that the Old Testament foretells Christ's coming and cruxifiction, and you look for some small point on which to base your denial of Christ's atonement?
Not at all, I don't believe that Jesus'pbuh was ever foretold in the OT that he is going to be crucified (<i>I have my own reason and argument on this topic in which I don't intend to discuss it now</i>), I have made it clear that the only reason why I asked this question is because Jesus said it is written, and yet it is not "really written"!! So I need some explanation, that's it.
Quote:Alright, you'd like to see where it is written in the law, psalms and prophets concerning Christ? I'll show you, however if you do not understand prophecy, the fault is not mine.
Yes I guess I did not understand the prophecy, but am not sure if that would be my fault, however, you have quoted one of my favorite verses in the Bible (Matthew 12:40), which I've studied for several months, and so I would like to start a new thread called "<b>Jesus pbuh and Jonah pbuh</b>" and share with you all my humble analysis on this topic based on what I've learned, and will love to hear your comments as well.
<b>For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.</b>
Salam
Wael.
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