Ask a Shia

[Karbala]

Karbala, please use your logic here. Why would Mohammed (pbuh) pray for Ali, Fatima, Al Hassan and Al-Hussain (raa) to be included here as Ahlul-bayt after the verse was revealed? Wouldn't that be pointless since the verse is talking about them?

I dont agree with your logic. What is wrong with the Prophet praying for Allah to carry out a promise he has made in the Quran? This sort of language has been used in the Quran itself.


3:9 Our Lord! surely Thou art the Gatherer of men on a day about which there is no doubt; surely Allah will not fail (His) promise.


3:194 Our Lord! And grant us that which you have promised to us by Your messengers and save us from shame on the Day of Judgement. Verily You never fail to fulfill Your promise.


Infact I thought we were always supposed to do Dua to ask for something even if Allah has already promised it to us.


4:122 And (as for) those who believe and do good, We will make them enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide therein for ever; (it is) a promise of Allah, true (indeed), and who is truer of word than Allah?


So according to your logic it would be pointless for "those who believe and do good" to ask for "gardens beneath which rivers flow" since it is already promised to them. This logic is wrong.

In fact, what the Prophet (pbuh) is trying to do is to include Ali, Fatima, Al Hassan and Al-Hussain (raa) as part of those that were mentioned as well. That is why he told Um Salama (raa) "inti ala khair". The verse is talking about her and the other wives.

Interesting interpretation. So you are saying Allah revealed a verse which didn't include Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain and then the Prophet (saw) had to pray for them to be included? This is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.


A few questions:


1. Is there any incident narrated which shows an event in which 33:33 was revealed for the wives? Or did you just assume that the wives were already in AhlulBayt?


2. Doesn't this mean that another verse had to be sent down, since the original verse was referring to the wives and Mohammad and not Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.


3. Why didn't Allah give Mohammad the same reply he gave Nuh in 11:45 when Nuh cried out to Allah to include his Son in his "Ahl" and was warned by Allah not to ask about that which he had no knowledge?


The incident with Umm Salamah clearly shows that the wives were not included.

[Karbala]

In other words, how do u perceive their children?

And that is why is it only Fatima (ra) of the prophet's sallallahu alaihi wa sallam children that is considered to be worthy to be among the people of the Bayt? How come? What about the other daughters?

What I have running round in my mind is how come not all the daughters are among the people of the Bayt?

what makes this anticipated Imam who must be one of the modern age, who might have brothers and father, grandfather, sons ..etc this particular one a Masòum unlike the rest of his own household leave alone the rest of those who come from the lineage of the Messener salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.[

Sobhan Allah, but as I told u i m sure u r quite aware that there are many living among us who are Ashraf or Sada, Ashraf are from the lineage of the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam who must observe the rule of not accepting sadaqa as u know. But then if they are from Ahul Bayt, why only the Imams are Ma``soum???

These are questions asking the same question ie why arent all of the Children or family of the 14 infallible members of AhlulBayt counted as infallible members of AhlulBayt?


As I said membership of Ahlulbayt depends on 2 things, 1. Blood relationship 2. Spiritual status. You need both. Hence even of you are related to someone from AhlulBayt by blood this doesn't necessarily make you a member of AhlulBayt. This is clearly demonstrated by Allah in Nuh's case with his son in Surah Hud 11:45-47.


This is not saying that those who do not acheive the status of infalliblity by being included in AhlulBayt are impure sinners. Rather they have their own status e.g. The shia highly venerate Ruqayyah, Zainab and Umm Kulthum with special invocations (Ziyarats) to be specially recited when one visits their grave.


The members of AhlulBayt of the Prophet Mohammad (saw) are 14 and 14 only including Mohammad, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the 9 Imams from the lineage of Hussain.


So even if you are a daughter of Prophet (saw) does not necessarily include you in AhlulBayt. Notice that their is a difference of opinion regarding the Prophet's daughters between Shia and Sunni schools. Shia maintain that Fatima was the only daughter of the Prophet (saw) while Sunnis include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthum.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


You are right, the questions were paraphrased in an effort to clearly put the point on.


2. Spiritual status


This is exactly what I mean, who decides this? based on what????? The Messenger is the Messenger, but who decides that this child and not the other can be classified as infallible? I mean when this Imam appears, who would tell u this is him and u have to follow??????

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Shia maintain that Fatima was the only daughter of the Prophet (saw) while Sunnis include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthum.


Strange, who told you so?? no wonder, now I understand this whole point of ahul bayt. I do have a background of the kisa hadeeth, since it stands as a strong foundation for Sufis approach as well and special love to Fatima and her household. Do u have any idea why did Fatima name her daughter Zainab? I mean after who?? And how about Ibraheem and Qassem.....????? The Messenger''s Kuniay was abul qaseem u know, right?

[Karbala]

This is exactly what I mean, who decides this? based on what????? The Messenger is the Messenger, but who decides that this child and not the other can be classified as infallible? I mean when this Imam appears, who would tell u this is him and u have to follow??????

These are questions regarding a very detailed answer. In short we can say that the infallibles were chosen by Allah and communicated to the Ummah via the Prophet(saw). We believe he clearly stated the names of all the 12 Imams along with Fatima as ma'soom.


How do we recognise the Imam when he comes? The answer to this question is the same as how will you recognise the Mahdi when he comes since we Shia belive they are both one and the same. There are supposed to be clear signs before his arrival such that no believer has any excuse to doubt.

Shia maintain that Fatima was the only daughter of the Prophet (saw) while Sunnis include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthum.
Strange, who told you so??

This is what is stated in Ali Asghar Rizvi's historical book "Restatement of the History of Islam" which is a modern book of history from the Shia view. Ruqayyah, Umm Kulthoom and Zaynab are viewed as either daughters from previous marriage of Khadija or daughters of Khadija's widowed sister. Nevertheless the Prophet adopted them and they are viewed highly with respect by Shias.

Do u have any idea why did Fatima name her daughter Zainab? I mean after who??

Possibly after her aunt Zaynab bint Mohammad the adopted daughter of Mohammad(saw). This is a strange question since Zaynab is a common arabic name meaning ornament of her father.

And how about Ibraheem and Qassem.....????? The Messenger''s Kuniay was abul qaseem u know, right?

Right I know this. Ibrahim and Qasem are both recognised as sons of Mohammad(saw) by Khadija who both died in infancy. Carefully read what I said, Fatima is the only DAUGHTER of the Prophet(saw)

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


No my question regarding Zainab's name is not strange Karbala, I intended to draw your attention that Fatima named her after Zainab Al Kobra.


Sobhan Allah, this whole story of Ahul bayt is just crafted in a way to have Fatma's household as ma`soum and so are the anticipated Imam.


Well, I should stop because usually I use my brain and I explained to you from a native Arabic speaker viewpoint, which I verified with Tafseer of Shaarawi (if u have heard about him), besides being a prominent scholar, he is an excellent one in the Arabic language, the part of 33:33 has nothing to do with calling Fatma and her household as ma`soum Karbala. Certainly u are aware that part of Quran's miracle and evidence that no one can distort it is the very rich arabic grammer it uses.


Well, for the sake of leaving argument as commanded by our teacher, Messenger and leader, I m still on my position Karbala, but the problem is that u dont want to see this side, since it really serves as basic foundation. Brother, the Ayahs has nothing to do with strictly calling Fatima and household ma`soum, neither does it execule the wives, nor fatma is the only daughter. Re read some of the hadeeth talking about how the daughters were divorced except for Zainab who was married to Al A`as....


Well, we shall continue conversing though brother.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Assalamu alaikum


Thanks Karbala for info.


Sister Muslimah - for now I do not have much to add, this info so to speak took my breath for a while. Have to 'recover'....

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Karbala, u know what? I thought to myself after making the last post, the most important thing is that we both accept Allah as One with no associates or partners, Mohamed is His final Messenger and Prophet, Eassa, Moussa, and Ibrahim were all His Messengers and Prophets. If u have an excessive love to the Messenger's household, we all do, provided this does not overshadow Allah's love, provided this does not cause a minor shirk. If u have a problem with one of the companions, well personally I dont prefer that I dig into their conflicts or what have occured between them. If we are commanded not to pursue my fellow Muslims faults, and cover up for them, rather than exposing them, they are entitled to the same right. I prefer not to search and see who is right and who is wrong, who am I to judge plus what is more important I wasnt there. And who knows if I was there from the beginning of the advent of Islam where would I be standing. Thus, your opinion about the companions should not be taken as a reason of conflict between us. If u interpret 33:33 the way u see it, Quran language is not easy to understand and people spend their lives to try to make the tafseer, well this is how u understand it according to your readings.


The most important point is that we are all Muslims, the only fear I have is that under the current situation, u might be falling into Bidaa just as teh issue of performing Nawafel.


Other than that, not that we wont continue our conversation, I still like to talk and understand further, we must always keep in mind we are muslims and not let our common enemy fuel conflicts.

[Hadji]

This is getting repetitive.

033.033
YUSUFALI: And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.


PICKTHAL: And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.


SHAKIR: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

These are what knowledgable translators have done with the verses.

Notice the additional meanings But, Rather, On the Contrary, However, Yet which all carry the same meaning of negating a quality in a previous statement by strongly affirming a quality in the next statement.

According to these translations it is without a doubt that the verse is talking about the same group of people.

So according to your logic it would be pointless for "those who believe and do good" to ask for "gardens beneath which rivers flow" since it is already promised to them. This logic is wrong.

No, but according to my logic, it is senseless to ask the Prophet (pbuh) to be included in Ahlul-Bayt if you already are considered to be one of them by Allah (swt).

1. Is there any incident narrated which shows an event in which 33:33 was revealed for the wives? Or did you just assume that the wives were already in AhlulBayt?

Not every verse needs a hadeeth to explain what's going on. I suppose it is just that obvious when it comes to 33:33. By the way, I'm really having a hard time believing that you're still sticking to the Shi'ite interpretation of this verse. Please try put your bias away just for a little while and look at the verse.


Ask yourself questions like:


Why are verses 28-34 all talking about the Prophet's (pbuh) wives? Even verse 33 according to Shi'ites starts off talking about the wives. Why didn't Allah (swt) put the latter portion of verse 33 anywhere else in to Qur'an to avoid all this confusion?


Why have Shi'tes struggled through time in order to prove that the latter part of 33 is not talking about the wives? Some scholars have went as far as to say that the Qur'an has been fabricated.


According to Al-Khoie in his book منهاج البراعة في شرح نهج البلاغة, he states that Al-Kulaini, Al-Tabrasi, Al-Majlisi, Al-Qummi, and Al-Jaza2iri all agree with this point.


Proof: http://www.aljaafaria.com/kotob/minhaj02/


Also, according to Syed Ali Almilani: ـ هل أعاد عثمان ترتيب بعض الآيات حسب ما تقتضيه السياسة في الوقت ، فمثلاً هل له دور في وضع آية التطهير وسط آيات خاصة بنساء النبي في سورة الأحزاب ؟


جواب سماحة السيد علي الميلاني


ـ نعم ، نحن نعتقد أن مكان آية التطهير وكذا الآية : ( اليوم اكملت لكم دينكم ) ونحوهما هو من فعل هؤلاء القوم ، ففي آية التطهير


http://alquran-network.net/masael1.htm


He states that the latter part of 33:33 was interesting in there by Othman who rearranged the Qur'an. Do you agree with this nonsense?

2. Doesn't this mean that another verse had to be sent down, since the original verse was referring to the wives and Mohammad and not Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.

Not necessarily. There are decisions made by Allah (swt) and laws that the Prophet (pbuh) that are much more important that cannot be found in the Qur'an also.

3. Why didn't Allah give Mohammad the same reply he gave Nuh in 11:45 when Nuh cried out to Allah to include his Son in his "Ahl" and was warned by Allah not to ask about that which he had no knowledge?

Nuh (as) didn't ask Allah (swt) to make his son a part of his ahl. He asked Allah (swt) to save his son who was being arrogant and thought that he could escape the wrath of Allah (swt). His situation and the situation of those that you consider as Ahlul-bayt aren't similar at all.

The incident with Umm Salamah clearly shows that the wives were not included.

Inniki ala khair doesn't mean "you aren't included"...

This is exactly what I mean, who decides this? based on what????? The Messenger is the Messenger, but who decides that this child and not the other can be classified as infallible? I mean when this Imam appears, who would tell u this is him and u have to follow??????

It is funny how you think just like me, Muslimah.

Possibly after her aunt Zaynab bint Mohammad the adopted daughter of Mohammad(saw). This is a strange question since Zaynab is a common arabic name meaning ornament of her father.

Strange. I wasn't aware that the Shi'ites believed in adoption...


Please have some objectivity Karbala. I believe that some people get so close to their faiths that no matter what they see, they will choose to stick to their views without question. Try being as objective as possible before you get there and I promise that I will try my best to do the same.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Othman who rearranged the Qur'an


la hawla wala qowata ila billah......