Ask a Shia

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Karbala jazakum Allah khairan for posting the additional meanings, I mis expressed and of course a student may certainly correct the teacher.


The word Ahl is used in many location to refer to wife as in: Taha: 10 and 55, Anbiya: 84, Sad: 43 and Naml:7.


What i wanted to emphsis is this sense, I m familiar with other sense.


But as for Ahul bayt being Masoum based on the hadeeth or even based on the Ayah of purification is in my humble opinion does not mean so. Allah Was very Clear on this brother Karbala Stating the


67. O Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve.


Again on the Ayahs of Al Ahzab, if u look carefully it starts by describing the wives of the Messenger as not like any other women. Isnt this enough to convey what their rank is???? Besides they are not supposed to be married after his death, does this apply to any other women?? certainly not.


I respected your attitude much when u said that u dont follow the scholars blindly. We are all aware that Shia scholars have their views about Aisha may Allah Be pleased with her due to the Camel situation she got into with Ali Radiya Allahu a`nhu.


As u explained to me that part of the foundation of the faith is to believe in Imamah who has to be of the Ahlu bayt. In such case, do u mean that all those from Ahul bayt who live among us today, they are many, are infallible????

[Karbala]

In His Name the Most High,


Salam,

The word Ahl is used in many location to refer to wife as in: Taha: 10 and 55, Anbiya: 84, Sad: 43 and Naml:7

I have read those verses and I dont think any of those verses are talking about wives.

67. O Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve.

Can you explain why this Ayah means that Ahlulbayt arent Ma'soom?

Again on the Ayahs of Al Ahzab, if u look carefully it starts by describing the wives of the Messenger as not like any other women. Isnt this enough to convey what their rank is???? Besides they are not supposed to be married after his death, does this apply to any other women?? certainly not.

Indeed the wives of the Prophet(saw) were different from normal people. I am not trying to question the status of the wives of the Prophet. i am just saying they are not included in AhlulBayt.


This is clear from Hadith al-Kisa which is narrated from Umm Salma where she asks if she could enter the Kisa and be part of AhlulBayt the Prophet(Saw) replies "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."


You can find it in Durr al-Manthur by Suyuti


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhN...s&Page=4&Size=1


Jami'Al Bayan Fi Tafsir alQuran by Al-Tabari


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhN...s&Page=5&Size=1


Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal Number 25300


http://www.al-eman.com/hadeeth/viewchp.a...CID=147#s1


There are so many other Sunni works which clearly say that the verse 33:33 was only revealed for the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.


Jami'Al Bayan Fi Tafsir alQuran by Al-Tabari


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhN...s&Page=4&Size=1


Al-Mustadrak by al-Hakim


http://www.mekkaoui.net/ar/hadit/mostadrak/12004.htm

As u explained to me that part of the foundation of the faith is to believe in Imamah who has to be of the Ahlu bayt. In such case, do u mean that all those from Ahul bayt who live among us today, they are many, are infallible????

No the only ma'sooms recognised by Shia are the 14 Ma'soom including the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the 9 Imams from the lineage of Hussain. These are the only people who can be called AhlulBayt of the Prophet(saw).

[Karbala]

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 316:
Narrated Anas:


A banquet of bread and meat was held on the occasion of the marriage of the Prophet to Zainab bint Jahsh. I was sent to invite the people (to the banquet), and so the people started coming (in groups); They would eat and then leave. Another batch would come, eat and leave. So I kept on inviting the people till I found nobody to invite. Then I said, "O Allah's Prophet! I do not find anybody to invite." He said, "Carry away the remaining food." Then a batch of three persons stayed in the house chatting. The Prophet left and went towards the dwelling place of Aisha and said, "Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you, O the people of the house!" She replied, "Peace and the mercy of Allah be on you too. How did you find your wife? May Allah bless you. Then he went to the dwelling places of all his other wives and said to them the same as he said to Aisha and they said to him the same as Aisha had said to him. Then the Prophet returned and found a group of three persons still in the house chatting. The Prophet was a very shy person, so he went out (for the second time) and went towards the dwelling place of 'Aisha. I do not remember whether I informed him that the people have gone away. So he returned and as soon as he entered the gate, he drew the curtain between me and him, and then the Verse of Al-Hijab was revealed.


---فخرج النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فانطلق إلى حجرة ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏فقال السلام عليكم أهل البيت---


http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Displ...0&Rec=7027


As you can see, the Prophet (pbuh) considers his wives as "ahlul-bayt" as well.

Hadji: I think you should know better than to quote a Shia a hadith narrated by Anas ibn Malik. You might know that we don't hold a very good view of this man. Hence this hadith is unreliable.


Regarding the context of 33:33. It is clear to me that the context itself excludes the wives from AhlulBayt for a few reasons.


1. The tone changes from legislative threats to will of purification.


2. The pronoun gender changes.


3. The reason the sentence "innama....." is placed amongst the Ayats about the wives is clearly to distinguish AhlulBayt from the Prophets wives.


4. The sheer number of Hadiths from sahih muslim, Sunan tirmidhi, al-mustadrak al-Hakim, Musnad Ahmad, Durr alManthoor Suyuti, Tafsir Tabari etc etc.


5. Parenthetical sentences are not uncommon in the Quran e.g. 5:3.


May I pose a question. Does "Innama Yureed Allah......3ankum al-Rijs AhlulBayt wa Yuttahirakum Tatheera" Not mean "purifying of sin"? It is well know that the wives of the Prophet were not sinless. Then it should be clear that the wives of the Prophet are not included in AhlulBayt.

[Hadji]

Looking at 9:55 ...
First Ayah addresses good people after "innama" addresses bad people with seal on hearts.

Karbala, all those verses that you have posted show a connection between what was said before "inama" and what came after it.


Verse 9:92 and 9:93 are talking about two different situations, but the verses are connected in the subject of whom to blame. Those in 9:92 cannot be blame. While those that are in 9:93 are to be blamed. "Inama" connects the two.

9:44 They do not ask leave of you who believe in Allah and the latter day (to stay away) from striving hard with their property and their persons, and Allah knows those who guard (against evil).
9:45 They only(innama) ask leave of you who do not believe in Allah and the latter day and their hearts are in doubt, so in their doubt do they waver.

These two verses are connected by "inama" by differentiating the type of people who will ask to be exempted from fighting and those who won't.

9:17 The idolaters have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness to unbelief against themselves, these it is whose doings are null, and in the fire shall they abide.
9:18 Only(innama) he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate and fears none but Allah; so (as for) these, it may be that they are of the followers of the right course.

These verses are connected as well. 9:17 and 9:18 uses "inama" to differentiate between those who should maintain or visit the mosques of Allah (swt).

A good verse to illustrate the usage of "innama" is 4:171 where Allah repeatedly uses the word "innama" for emphasis.
يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ


O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word

As for this verse, it is without a doubt that the words that come before and after "inama" are connected. I can't see how you don't see this.

[shakir 5:91] The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist?

Once again, look up 5:90. The verses are connected by "inama". Iblees uses the things mentioned in 5:91 to "cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst".

[shakir 9:55] Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world's life and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers.

"Inama" shows that Allah (swt) wishes to chastise them with "these". "There" are their property and children and "these" shouldn't excite our admiration.


Now, if we look at 33:33. It is without a doubt that there is no connection between the words that come before and after "inama" if we use the Shi'ite interpretation. The only way for there to be some sort of connection is if Ahlul-bayt and the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) are the same.

I have read those verses and I dont think any of those verses are talking about wives.

Did you read any commentary on the verses. According to my knowledge they "ahl" means wife in each.

Jami'Al Bayan Fi Tafsir alQuran by Al-Tabari
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMad...e=4&Size=1

Go to page 7:


حدثنا ابن حميد، قال: ثنا يحيى بن واضح، قال: ثنا الأصبغ، عن علقمة، قال: كان عكرمة ينادي فـي السوق: { إنَّـمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِـيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرّجْسَ أهْلَ البَـيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً } قال: نزلت فـي نساء النبـيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم خاصة.


According to some of the companions the verse specifically talks about the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

No the only ma'sooms recognised by Shia are the 14 Ma'soom including the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the 9 Imams from the lineage of Hussain. These are the only people who can be called AhlulBayt of the Prophet(saw).

What about the other daughters of Mohammed (pbuh)? Why only those fourteen?

Hadji: I think you should know better than to quote a Shia a hadith narrated by Anas ibn Malik. You might know that we don't hold a very good view of this man. Hence this hadith is unreliable.

Only Anas ibn Malik? I thought you considered all Sunni hadiths as unreliable. Of course, except for the ones that you folks use to argue against Sunnis with. Please, I'm only trying to show you the meaning of Ahlul-Bayt in the eyes of Sunnis. With hadiths like this, it's only obvious that we would consider the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as Ahlul-bayt.

1. The tone changes from legislative threats to will of purification.
2. The pronoun gender changes.


3. The reason the sentence "innama....." is placed amongst the Ayats about the wives is clearly to distinguish AhlulBayt from the Prophets wives.


4. The sheer number of Hadiths from sahih muslim, Sunan tirmidhi, al-mustadrak al-Hakim, Musnad Ahmad, Durr alManthoor Suyuti, Tafsir Tabari etc etc.


5. Parenthetical sentences are not uncommon in the Quran e.g. 5:3.

1. There are many verses in the Qur'an that talk about "tat-heer" and "rijs" that aren't exclusive to Ahlul-Bayt.


2. We've already stated that Mohammed (pbuh) is also from Ahlul-Bayt.


3. I've already demonstrated with a lot of evidence that "inama" is only used when there is SOME sort of connection between the two verses. Maybe you are trying to say that Allah (swt) wants "al rijs" to occur on the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).


4. Right. None of these have anything to do with infallibility or Imamah. Nor do they state that these people are the ONLY people considered to be from Ahlul-Bayt... the arguments go on.


5. Agreed, but only if "inama" didn't divide the two sentences.

May I pose a question. Does "Innama Yureed Allah......3ankum al-Rijs AhlulBayt wa Yuttahirakum Tatheera" Not mean "purifying of sin"? It is well know that the wives of the Prophet were not sinless. Then it should be clear that the wives of the Prophet are not included in AhlulBayt.

The verse has nothing to do with sinlessness. Also, those that you consider to be Ahlul-bayt are no sinless. I'll write more later... I got class in fifteen minutes.

[Hadji]

<----- cont'd.


Anyways...

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="4295" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>May I pose a question. Does "Innama Yureed Allah......3ankum al-Rijs AhlulBayt wa Yuttahirakum Tatheera" Not mean "purifying of sin"? It is well know that the wives of the Prophet were not sinless. Then it should be clear that the wives of the Prophet are not included in AhlulBayt.

8.11 : Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and He caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.


وَيُنَزِّلُ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ بِهِ وَيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمْ رِجْزَ الشَّيْطَانِ وَلِيَرْبِطَ عَلَى قُلُوبِكُمْ وَيُثَبِّتَ بِهِ الأْقْدَام


The verse is about the companions that fought in the battle of Badr. Are we to believe that they are infallible as well?

</div></blockquote>

[Karbala]

In His Name the Most High,


Salam,


Thank you Hadji for your reply.

Karbala, all those verses that you have posted show a connection between what was said before "inama" and what came after it.

I am not denying there is a connection. Infact I am saying the opposite THERE IS A CONNECTION. The connection in these verses shows clearly that the wives are excluded from Ahlulbayt. Just like in 9:55 separates one group from another by connecting the sentences using the word "innama" similarly 33:33 the sentences about Ahlulbayt are separated from the Sentence about the wives by connecting them using "innama"


Perhaps it will be clearer if I paraphrase 33:30 to 33:33 and no the companions who faught in the Battle of Badr arent infallible.


O wives of the Prophet if you sin then we will punish you double. If you are obedient you will be rewarded double. You are not like other women so be careful, soften your speech and speak good. Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the days of ignorance <b>and as for you AhlulBayt Allah wishes to Purify you from all sin perfectly.</b>


This is what I understand as the context of these verses.

Only Anas ibn Malik? I thought you considered all Sunni hadiths as unreliable. Of course, except for the ones that you folks use to argue against Sunnis with. Please, I'm only trying to show you the meaning of Ahlul-Bayt in the eyes of Sunnis. With hadiths like this, it's only obvious that we would consider the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as Ahlul-bayt.

If you want to believe this man its up to you. Personally I dont just believe anyone blindly.

There are many verses in the Qur'an that talk about "tat-heer" and "rijs" that aren't exclusive to Ahlul-Bayt.

The verse has nothing to do with sinlessness. Also, those that you consider to be Ahlul-bayt are no sinless. I'll write more later... I got class in fifteen minutes.

The verse is about the companions that fought in the battle of Badr. Are we to believe that they are infallible as well?

Lets compare 8:11 with 33:33


Both verses use the word Yudhhiba and Taharakum. The difference is in the degree of purification.


33:33 used Al-Rijs while 8:11 uses Rijz. I think you will agree that the definite Al-Rijs is more emphatic meaning "all abomination" or "all uncleanliness" (Yusufali) than simply Rijz.


33:33 used Tatheera while 8:11 has no such word. Infact 33:33 is the only place in the Quran where Tatheera is used. Most translators translate this as "Throrough" (Shakir) or "Perfect"(Mir Ahmad Ali) or "Utmost"(M.Asad) Purification.


Hence it should be clear that the purification in 8:11 is nowhere near the level of 33:33.

[Karbala]

حدثنا ابن حميد، قال: ثنا يحيى بن واضح، قال: ثنا الأصبغ، عن علقمة، قال: كان عكرمة ينادي فـي السوق: { إنَّـمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِـيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرّجْسَ أهْلَ البَـيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً } قال: نزلت فـي نساء النبـيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم خاصة.
According to some of the companions the verse specifically talks about the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

And you believe them? Even though you know that Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain are part of AhlulBayt? This same Akramah character is quoted in Ibn Kathir:


"It was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet .'' `Ikrimah said: "Whoever disagrees with me that it was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet , I am prepared to meet with him and pray and invoke the curse of Allah upon those who are lying.'' So they alone were the reason for revelation, but others may be included by way of generalization.


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=41607


Isnt that amazing! Not only is he wrong for saying that it was <b>"revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet"</b> he goes further and says <b>"I am prepared to meet with him and pray and invoke the curse of Allah upon those who are lying.''</b> What can I say. You should know that this same Akramah was a Kharijiite who used to go around killing muslims. Not a very reliable person is he?

The verse has nothing to do with sinlessness.

Many sunni Tafseer says that it is talking about purification from "Dhunoob" or "Ithm" or sin.


Ibn Abbas


{ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيـراً } من الذنوب


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhN...s&UserProfile=0


Samarqandi


{ وَيُطَهّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيــراً } يعني: من الإثم والذنوب


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhN...s&UserProfile=0


etc etc.


Why do you ignore hadith al-Kisa narrated by Umm Salma which you can find in Tirmidhi, Durr al-Manthoor, Tabari and Musnad Ahmad which clearly shows that the wives werent included.


I also cant see how one can reject other hadiths which mention the word 5 with regards to AhlulBayt in this verse e.g. in Tabari


" نَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ فِـي خَمْسَةٍ: فِـيّ، وفِـي علـيّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، وَحَسَنٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، وَحُسَيْنٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، وَفـاطِمَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْها " { إنَّـمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِـيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرّجْسَ أهْلَ البَـيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً }.


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhN...s&Page=4&Size=1


Why do you reject Zaid ibn Arqam who clearly says in Sahih Muslim that the wives are not included in AhlulBayt in this verse?


<b>Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.</b>


One last question. Lets assume this verse includes the wives and the Propet (saw). If this verse isn't about sinlessness this means that the wives of the Prophet are purified to the same level as the Prophet (saw). So either the wives are infallible or the Prophet(saw) is not infallible.


I dont think I will discuss this topic any more. Inshallah maybe we can agree to just disagree and move on to the next topic.

[Hadji]

This is what I understand as the context of these verses.

I can see that you're struggling with the text since it contradicts with your personal beliefs. I suggest you improve your Arabic language skills and then taking a second look.


Some Shi'ite scholars have gone as far as claiming that the second part of 33:33 has been switched into it's current position by the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) and was originally in a different place in the Qur'an.

If you want to believe this man its up to you. Personally I dont just believe anyone blindly.

Please don't underestimate those that don't follow your faith. Assuming that those who accept hadiths by Anas are blind followers is a very closed minded point of view.

Hence it should be clear that the purification in 8:11 is nowhere near the level of 33:33.

The language of the Qur'an is Arabic. You're trying to prove to me that the levels of "purification" even though he word used in Arabic is the same because of English translations?

"Perfect"(Mir Ahmad Ali)

A Shi'ite translator? Please, don't play these games with me.

And you believe them? Even though you know that Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain are part of AhlulBayt?

Karbala, please use your logic here. Why would Mohammed (pbuh) pray for Ali, Fatima, Al Hassan and Al-Hussain (raa) to be included here as Ahlul-bayt after the verse was revealed? Wouldn't that be pointless since the verse is talking about them?


In fact, what the Prophet (pbuh) is trying to do is to include Ali, Fatima, Al Hassan and Al-Hussain (raa) as part of those that were mentioned as well. That is why he told Um Salama (raa) "inti ala khair". The verse is talking about her and the other wives.

You should know that this same Akramah was a Kharijiite who used to go around killing muslims.

According to Shi'ite scholars I'm sure.

Why do you reject Zaid ibn Arqam who clearly says in Sahih Muslim that the wives are not included in AhlulBayt in this verse?

Why do you reject Zaid's other narration?

So either the wives are infallible or the Prophet(saw) is not infallible.

I'm surprised that an ex-Sunni doesn't know that Mohammed (pbuh) isn't considered infallible. His infallibility is only exclusive to his duties as a messenger.

Inshallah maybe we can agree to just disagree and move on to the next topic.

Agreeing to disagree is what I do best. Of course, I'd rather we continue this discussion after you get a better feel for the Arabic language.


My turn to ask you a question. If you aren't here to convert us to Shiasm, then why are you here?


I honestly don't believe that you'd just want to stop at "clearing our misconceptions about Shiasm."

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Hadji


If you aren't here to convert us to Shiasm, then why are you here?


I honestly don't believe that you'd just want to stop at "clearing our misconceptions about Shiasm."


I think whatever his reasons are, let us not question them and just continue discussing. It is a very good practice to have a chance to talk face to face and see where can we meet.. let us not assume. He is here because Allah Brought him here.

[Karbala]

Bismillah


ASsalam O Alaykum,


Brother Hadji Inshallah I will continue this discussion with you. I think you are right I do need to study the arabic of the verse a little deeper. Inshallah I will do that and get back to you. Arabic as you might not appreciate for a non-arab is a very hard language to comprehend.

If you aren't here to convert us to Shiasm, then why are you here?
I honestly don't believe that you'd just want to stop at "clearing our misconceptions about Shiasm."

Because the first time I saw this forum people were thinking that Shias kill sheep after naming them Abu Bakr and Umar, some people thought that we think that Jibraeel (as) made a mistake, others thought that we think that Ali was greater than Mohammad(saw) or that we thought Ali is god (May God protect us from such deviation) and yet others believe we have a different Quran.


All I wanted to do was clear some of these misconceptions and discuss some ideas. I have learnt a lot from you I hope you can be patient with me.


And May Allah Bless you all.