03-03-2007, 01:35 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2007, 01:43 PM by Faith Hope Charity.)
In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you, Wael!
Here we go again... :D
There's no way of slowing you down :D
I also don’t throw the Bible around and treat it with disrespect. Although I don’t consider it holy, but since my Christians friends do have faith in it, then it become obligatory on me to show respect to their beliefs… however, I do not show any respect to some woods and stones made by human beings.
Hehe! You totally dodged my questions. So paper can represent holiness but wood & stone can't. I see.
Thanks for respecting the Holy Bible. According to the Holy Qur'an it's a gift from Allah ;)
No one bowed down to Prophet Muhammad pbuh (<b>the best of all creation</b>) when he was the ruler of Arabia. Do you see the significance now? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh even warned us not to make out of his grave a place of worship, to avoid the practice of <b>polytheism. </b>
Please see the attachment below. Obviously no one sent the memo to this poor Muslim dude who honored his mom by bowing before her.
[attachmentid=61]
You know what? I will have no problem if you bow down out of respect to Mary may Allah be pleased with her when you see her <b>in real</b>, you may even kiss her hands and feets, <b>but to touch a piece of stone ,talk to it , bow down to it and ask for its help</b>??? That is not acceptable.
We don't consider the piece of stone to be Mary. She's alive & kicking in Heaven. For instance, right now, I'm chatting to you, but I'm sitting in front of a computer, so it's not really you but my message will reach you ;)
Absolutely wrong; Pagans during Muhammad’s pbuh time did believe in One True God and they even called Him Allah, but they associate with Him partners/saints in prayers and offering. Exactly what Catholics doing today.
Slight difference. The Saints are <i>our</i> partners, not God's.
True, they do believe in one and only God, but at the same time, <b>they also pray to other people along with the one true God. </b> which was practiced by pagans.
Prayer & worship aren't necessarily the same thing in this respect. When you say "pray to the Saints", I'm interpreting it as "conversing with the Saints". We pray to God through them. I guess you could call it prayer because we're raising up our thoughts & hearts to Heaven, where the Saints are at home in the Beatific Vision.
Because it was chosen by God to unite all Muslims into one direction, and we are not to question God why you chose this place exactly, can you as God why He chose Mount Sinai to speak with Moses and not the Everest? We are Muslims (i.e he who submits his will to the will of God) and since that was His will, then we obey it, and one of His will is to worship and call upon Him only and no His creation.
The last aspect we focus on in that event is whether God spoke at Mt Sinai or Mt Everest :lol:
Muslims even during Prophet Muhammad’s pbuh time stood up on the top of the Ka’bah to give the call for prayer, which idol worshipper today will stand on the top of the idol that he worship?
When a statue of the BVM breaks, you don't hear Catholics say, "Mary's torn into pieces". So I guess statues & images are similar to the Kabbah - holy & significant... but not an idol :)
By bearing witness that Muhammad pbuh is the messenger of God, you are making a commitment with God Almighty that you have accepted the message that he brought to humanity. The only one thing Muhammad pbuh was asking his people is to believe in only One True God, and that he was truly His messenger.
Hmmm... I see a parallel between Muhammad (PBUH) & the BVM. We just chose to honor them in different ways.
Yes, we may also offer Du’a and call upon God anytime we desire. In fact, in every action that Muslim take in his daily life, we do have a prayer; when we wake up, when we sleep, when we go to the bathroom, when we come out, when we eat, when we finish eating, when we go out of our home and when we come in, when we drive a car or take any transportation, when we see some calamity, when we enter the mosque, when we come out, and on and on…
I'm assuming you can pray for others during Dua, right??? I think I'll ask St Charbel to offer a Dua for me tonight :)
Maybe not to the Bible, but indeed I am doing to myself a favor by studying your Bible.
It's not my Bible - it's God's. He comes first, you come second ;)
Oh you are the first Christian who don’t get this one. Ok try hard and you will get it
03-04-2007, 01:56 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2007, 02:06 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah:
Quote:There's no way of slowing you down
As long as I am following <i>Deen ul Haq</i> “<b>The religion of Truth</b>” Alhamdulelah :)
Quote:So paper can represent holiness but wood & stone can't. I see.
Are you kidding? Do you bow down to your Bible out of respect? Do you pray to your Bible? Come on please…
Quote:Thanks for respecting the Holy Bible. According to the Holy Qur'an it's a gift from Allah
Whenever you talk about something mentioned in the Qur’an please offer the reference, so we can check up your claim.
Quote:Please see the attachment below. Obviously no one sent the memo to this poor Muslim dude who honored his mom by bowing before her.
Is this "Muslim" represent Islam? I can’t even see this image clearly. However, sometimes I hold my mother’s hand and kiss it, by doing that I must bow alittle bit, but I don’t pray to her, I don’t ask her to be there for me when I die. in other words, I Don't place her in a position that is not hers.
for instance, i just saw in the news some months ago, <b>that millions of people gathered in Costa Rica's "holy city" of Cartago to ask Mary for an end to a crime wave that has traumatized the normally peaceful Central American nation. </b> You see FHC, the majority of catholics, in reality they worship the creation of God instead of the Creator. and by imitating the religions of pagans and thier way of worship and practices, and this is considered to be <b>polytheism</b>.
Quote:We don't consider the piece of stone to be Mary. She's alive & kicking in Heaven.
Yes but she have no power to listen to your prayer, the Bible mentioned that she herself <b>needed a savior</b>, then how can you ask her to save you through some stones made by human beings?
Quote:For instance, right now, I'm chatting to you, but I'm sitting in front of a computer, so it's not really you but my message will reach you
But I cant hear you FHC, I simply don’t even know what you are saying before typing your messages. Maybe sometimes you are saying, <i>“Oh this Muslim man is really boring”</i> , Who knows what you are saying FHC? Allah alone knows. :)
Quote:Slight difference. The Saints are our partners, not God's.
I know what you believe, but praying <b>TO</b> other than Allah is an act of associating partners with Him in worship and praise.
Quote:Prayer & worship aren't necessarily the same thing in this respect. When you say "pray to the Saints", I'm interpreting it as "conversing with the Saints". We pray to God through them. I guess you could call it prayer because we're raising up our thoughts & hearts to Heaven, where the Saints are at home in the Beatific Vision.
This is your own interpretation FHC. But reality? You are <b>PRAYING TO THEM
TO SAVE YOU AND BE THERE FOR YOU WHEN YOU DIE</b>. Subhan Allah.
Quote:When a statue of the BVM breaks, you don't hear Catholics say, "Mary's torn into pieces". So I guess statues & images are similar to the Kabbah - holy & significant... but not an idol
The Ka’bah was built by the Prophet’s of God, with an order from God, the Statues of Mary and other <b>UNKNOWN</b> ‘<i>saints images’ </i> were the work of some artists following no commands from God.
Quote:Hmmm... I see a parallel between Muhammad (PBUH) & the BVM. We just chose to honor them in different ways.
<b>No comparison</b> between Muhammad pbuh and Mary may Allah be pleased with her.
Quote:I think I'll ask St Charbel to offer a Dua for me tonight
Ok can you also ask him/her <b>to confirm </b> whether she offered this Du’a for you or not? Thanks :)
Quote:It's not my Bible - it's God's. He comes first, you come second
In Christ we have eternal life. The saints are in Heaven as we speak offering prayer and praise for the one true God. Those saints aren't dead. They are alive. Communion of the Saints is biblical.
03-04-2007, 04:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2007, 04:48 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah:
Quote: Communion of the Saints is biblical.
Ok let's talk about Mary for a while.
<b>please show me from the Bible that:</b>
1- Mary placed herself between Jesus and his followers, in other words, no one reach God and Jesus except through Mary.
2- God’s love can reach you only through Mary.
3- That the knowledge of ‘truth’ comes only through Mary.
4- That Salvation and all heavenly gifts from Father, son and holy ghost comes only through Mary.
5- That Mary is the ladder, Chief confidence, whole ground of hope, greatest security, and the door to God for the sinners.
6- That Mary is co-shared in the offering and sacrifice for sin at Calvary.
7- Mary is also redeemer, mediator, intercessor, advocate, restorer and minister and not only Jesus.
8- That Mary can hear your prayer and answer them faster than Jesus.
9- Mary is the first born daughter of God.
10- Mary is the spouse and lover of Godhead.
11- Mary is the bride and spouse of God the father.
12- Mary is the spouse and bride of God the son.
13- Mary is the bride and spouse of God the holy spirit.
14- Through Mary God is glorified and adored.
15- Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the throne of God.
16- God Himself is submissive and obedient to Mary, not only that but He is a subject to her.
17- Everything you do, must be done for Mary.
18- Through Mary you can have Salvation and can enter heaven.
19- Through Mary you can gain eternal life.
20- Mary is the center of the whole world, and so you should praise her, venerate her, honor her, esteem her and WORSHIP HER.
21- Devotion to Mary is a MUST for salvation and freedom from sin.
Please Note, I did not invent the above points by myself, nor did I copy and paste them from any Non Catholic websites, but I do have quotations by Pops, Catholic saints, books written by devoted learned Catholics, etc… and if you wish I can offer these quotations in case you object any of the above points.
Anyway, I would like to see verses from the Bible confirming the above points.
As long as I am following <i>Deen ul Haq</i> “<b>The religion of Truth</b>” Alhamdulelah
That's fine, Wael. You stick to your Deen & I'll stick to mine. There's no need to compete. We're both children of Abraham :)
Are you kidding? Do you bow down to your Bible out of respect? Do you pray to your Bible? Come on please…
Yes, I bow out of reverence when the Priest elevates it during Mass & I kiss it every night. I'm in deep prayer whilst reading the Holy Bible because God speaks to me through it.
Whenever you talk about something mentioned in the Qur’an please offer the reference, so we can check up your claim.
Hehe! Sorry, I assumed you knew it well. Sura al-Baqara, between Ayats 80-110 :)
Is this "Muslim" represent Islam? I can’t even see this image clearly. However, sometimes I hold my mother’s hand and kiss it, by doing that I must bow alittle bit, but I don’t pray to her, I don’t ask her to be there for me when I die. in other words, I Don't place her in a position that is not hers.
:D I was just trying to show you that true worship is expressed from within. We can bow/prostrate with various intentions.
You don't want your mother beside you on your death bed???
Pray is a conversation, remember? It's like you in Hong Kong chatting to your mom in Egypt over the phone & asking her to offer Dua for you. I'll go one step further & say that you're staring at a framed picture of her hung in your house :lol:
Continue kissing your mama's hands - she deserves it because she did an awesome job raising you :thumb:
for instance, i just saw in the news some months ago, <b>that millions of people gathered in Costa Rica's "holy city" of Cartago to ask Mary for an end to a crime wave that has traumatized the normally peaceful Central American nation. </b> You see FHC, the majority of catholics, in reality they worship the creation of God instead of the Creator. and by imitating the religions of pagans and thier way of worship and practices, and this is considered to be <b>polytheism</b>.
Perhaps it appears that way to you but not to me. I know exactly what they were doing :)
Yes but she have no power to listen to your prayer, the Bible mentioned that she herself <b>needed a savior</b>, then how can you ask her to save you through some stones made by human beings?
Every human being needs a saviour - Our Lady is no exception. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, redeemed us & now salvation is in our hands. We look to the BVM as our role model & we ask her to assist us on our path through her powerful prayers.
But I cant hear you FHC, I simply don’t even know what you are saying before typing your messages. Maybe sometimes you are saying, <i>“Oh this Muslim man is really boring”</i> , Who knows what you are saying FHC? Allah alone knows.
Me & my pathetic examples :lol: The Saints in Heaven have infused knowledge to a certain degree.
99% of my thoughts about you are positive... sometimes I think to myself, "What an Ahkrout" (Arabic) :P Indeed, Allah (SWT) knows... & so would you if I chose to make my thoughts known to you (like I do with the Saints).
I know what you believe, but praying <b>TO</b> other than Allah is an act of associating partners with Him in worship and praise.
Honestly Wael, if I were to offer more than veneration & honour to the BVM & the other Saints, they'd refuse it because they, like myself, cannot bear idolatry. God is One & only He is worthy of adoration, praise & worship. Amen!
This is your own interpretation FHC. But reality? You are <b>PRAYING TO THEM
TO SAVE YOU AND BE THERE FOR YOU WHEN YOU DIE</b>. Subhan Allah.
Here is how we pray to Our Lady...
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women & blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, <b>pray for us sinners, now & at the hour of our death</b>. Amen."
Subhan Allah.
The Ka’bah was built by the Prophet’s of God, with an order from God, the Statues of Mary and other <b>UNKNOWN</b> ‘<i>saints images’ </i> were the work of some artists following no commands from God.
They're based on God's commands in the O/T:
Exodus 25:18 - "And you shall make two cherubim of gold (for the Ark of the Covenant)"
Exodus 26:1 - The curtains around the ark have cherubim on them
Exodus 26:31 - The linen veil had cherubim placed on it
Numbers 21:8-9 - The Lord tells Moses to make the bronze serpent
1 Kings 6:23 - By God's design the temple had engraved cherubim
1 Kings 6:35 - Doors in the temple had Cherubim, flowers and palm trees carved on them
1 Kings 7:25-45 - By God's design the temple had bronze oxen and lions
<b>No comparison</b> between Muhammad pbuh and Mary may Allah be pleased with her.
Why do you say PBUH for Muhammad & MABPWH for Maryam??? What's the difference? Thanks :)
Ok can you also ask him/her <b>to confirm </b> whether she offered this Du’a for you or not? Thanks
Consider it done :)
Well, I don’t believe that it is belongs to God.
There's nothing in the world that doesn't belong to God.
03-04-2007, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2007, 02:53 PM by Faith Hope Charity.)
To the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Quote:Ok let's talk about Mary for a while.
There's nothing else I'd rather do :wub:
Quote:<b>please show me from the Bible that:</b>
Anything for you, Wael :) Even though you don't recognize the authenticity & sacredness of Scripture.
1- Mary placed herself between Jesus and his followers, in other words, no one reach God and Jesus except through Mary.
Praying through Mary is optional not compulsory.
She interceded for the guests at the wedding in Cana by asking Jesus to perform His first miracle & change water to wine.
St John 2:1-11.
2- God’s love can reach you only through Mary.
God's love - Jesus Christ - reached us through Mother Mary, the vessel.
She accepted her calling & conceived Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
St Luke 1:26-38.
3- That the knowledge of ‘truth’ comes only through Mary.
When the BVM's cousin, St Elizabeth, heard her greeting, the baby in her womb, St John the Baptist, leaped for joy. St Elizabeth then called the BVM blessed because she believed the words God had spoken were true.
St Luke 1:44-45.
4- That Salvation and all heavenly gifts from Father, son and holy ghost comes only through Mary.
The fruit of the BVM's womb is Divine & He brings everything from Heaven into this world.
St Luke 1:42-43.
Jesus Christ, Mary's Son, is the Saviour of the world & He has given us everything the Father gave to Him.
St John 15:9-11.
5- That Mary is the ladder, Chief confidence, whole ground of hope, greatest security, and the door to God for the sinners.
By the grace of God bestowed upon the BVM, she crushed the head of the serpent - the source of evil which causes us to sin.
Revelation 12; cf Genesis 3:15.
6- That Mary is co-shared in the offering and sacrifice for sin at Calvary.
The sword that pierced Jesus Christ also pierced His Mother as she stood & watched Him being beaten & crucified, as prophesized.
St Luke 2:33-35.
7- Mary is also redeemer, mediator, intercessor, advocate, restorer and minister and not only Jesus.
The biblical references for most of these have been provided above.
The BVM is co-redemptorist because she's the vehicle for our Redeemer (Isaiah 7:14). Jesus Christ in the only mediator between God & man (1 St Timothy 2:5), the BVM is the mediator between her Son & Christians & she intercedes on our behalf (ST John 2:23-5). The grace which our first parents lost was restored in the BVM (St Luke 1:28). She took part in all the pivotal events in her Son's life & continued His ministry alongside the Apostles after Christ's Ascension (Acts 1:12-14).
She's a gift from her Son to His beloved disciple (each one of us).
St John 19:26-27.
8- That Mary can hear your prayer and answer them faster than Jesus.
The BVM can answer our prayers faster than Jesus??? :o That's a heresy!
9- Mary is the first born daughter of God.
The BVM is the new Eve. She's the Virgin of the Covenant which God establishes with all humanity in the new creation.
By the Incarnation, the Son of God became Man & entered the world through the BVM. Many people came to worship Christ after Mother Mary gave birth to Him.
St Luke 2:7-20.
15- Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the throne of God.
Excuse me???
16- God Himself is submissive and obedient to Mary, not only that but He is a subject to her.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God Incarnate, was obedient to His mother as all children ought. Mother Mary pondered all these things in her heart.
St Luke 2:48-51.
17- Everything you do, must be done for Mary.
Untrue! However, it wouldn't hurt us to make our Mother part of our daily lives.
18- Through Mary you can have Salvation and can enter heaven.
The BVM's prayers/intercessions strengthen us to become true disciples of Christ. She leads us to Him by her perfect example which we're called to follow.
Through the BVM, we receive the Son of God in the flesh. Through Mary, the Son of God assumed a human nature & died for the sins of the world, granting us eternal life. Only He can judge who enters Heaven.
Hebrews 9:26 & St John 5:22.
19- Through Mary you can gain eternal life.
God sent forth His Son, but to prepare a body for him, He wanted the free co-operation of a creature. The woman chosen is the BVM. Just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.
20- Mary is the center of the whole world, and so you should praise her, venerate her, honor her, esteem her and WORSHIP HER.
Completely absurd :rolleyes:
21- Devotion to Mary is a MUST for salvation and freedom from sin.
Devotions are helpful but are in no obligatory. In her apparitions, Our Lady urged the faithful to take her hand so to speak & join her in establishing God's kingdom on earth.
Quote:Please Note, I did not invent the above points by myself, nor did I copy and paste them from any Non Catholic websites, but I do have quotations by Pops, Catholic saints, books written by devoted learned Catholics, etc… and if you wish I can offer these quotations in case you object any of the above points.
Please note, you're not the first person on earth & you won't be the last to attack Catholicism. There's nothing Holy Mother Church isn't able to withstand from now until the end of time. Just ask Dan Brown :P
Quote:Anyway, I would like to see verses from the Bible confirming the above points.
Wel....much of your "questions" demonstrate that you have little actual understanding of how the Church treats the Blessed Virgin Mary. Several of the questions were outright heresy.
Mary is Holy because Christ was Holy. Mary points to her Son...not away from Him.
If I was real good friends with you and after I while I met your mother and came to know her very well too would that somehow dimenish my friendship with you?
Although my post was directed to CC who said that <b>“communion of saints”</b> is a biblical. but anyway, Thanks for your efforts. I really appreciate it.
Even though you don't recognize the authenticity & sacredness of Scripture.
Yes but I want to see how you guys are going to <b>interpret the Bible</b>.
She interceded for the guests at the wedding in Cana by asking Jesus to perform His first miracle & change water to wine. St John 2:1-11.
This is has nothing to do with reaching God and Jesus through <b>Praying to Mary</b>.
To make my statement clear, please have a look at what St. Alphonsus Ligouri said which clearly shows that <b>you cannot come to God except through Mary</b>…
so is there any clear biblical verses to prove this?
"...we only have access to the Father by means of the Son, who is the Mediator of justice, so we only have access to the Son by means of the Mother, who is mediator of grace, and who obtains for us, by her intercession, the gifts which Jesus Christ has merited for us....you cannot come to God except by means of Jesus Christ, nor can you come to Christ except by means of his Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection (The Necessity and Power of Prayer), Chapter 1, The Necessity of Prayer, Section 4 "The Intercession of the Blessed Virgin".[
url=http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/mustpray.htm]Source[/url]
Pope Leo XIII have a similar saying:
“With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....Mary is this glorious intermediary..." Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 4. SOURCE
St Louis Marie makes it even clearer.
"We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must never be without her when praying to Jesus.....
"Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God.." St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #10, 48, 50. SOURCE
So if praying to Mary is not obligatory, and one can pray to God directly, then his prayers would be of <b>‘little value’</b>
When the BVM's cousin, St Elizabeth, heard her greeting, the baby in her womb, St John the Baptist, leaped for joy. St Elizabeth then called the BVM blessed because she believed the words God had spoken were true. St Luke 1:44-45.
What this has to do with <b>“through Mary that we attain to the knowledge of Christ"</b>
The fruit of the BVM's womb is Divine & He brings everything from Heaven into this world.
St Luke 1:42-43.
The verses mentioned that she is <b>“blessed among the women”</b>, not all heavenly gifts are given through her.
Now I am confuse, one verse of the Bible mentioned that no one comes to the father except through Jesus, you interpreted this verse that you should worship Jesus the son, in order to reach to God the father… <b>so why the interpretation now changed when it comes to Mary?</b> i.e “no one can reach Jesus except through her”.
By the grace of God bestowed upon the BVM, she crushed the head of the serpent - the source of evil which causes us to sin.
<b>so no one is sinning amongst you now? Or what this mean. </b>
Anyway, your explanation is different than St Lawrence
"St. Lawrence Justinian asks: 'How can she (Mary) be otherwise than full of grace, who has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and man?'...
"Again, the holy Church calls her ‘the happy gate of heaven;’ for as the same Saint Bernard remarks: ‘As every mandate of grace that is sent by a king passes by the palace-gates, so does every grace that comes from heaven to the world pass through the hands of Mary’ (Serm. iii. In Virg. Nat. D). Saint Bonaventure says that Mary is called ‘the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing by her’ (Exposit. in cap. I. Luc)." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter V "To Thee Do We Sigh". SOURCE
where in your Bible that match with the above.
The BVM can answer our prayers faster than Jesus??? That's a heresy!
"St. Anselm reminds us that <b>we may obtain mercy more quickly from Mary than from Jesus</b>, because Jesus is also a judge who can punish, while Mary exercises mercy as a patroness. It is not as if Mary were more powerful than Jesus, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Savior, and that He alone by His merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us. He reminds us: <b>'We often obtain more promptly what we ask by invoking Mary than by invoking Jesus</b>. Her Son is lord and judge of all, and discerns the merits of each one; therefore, if He does not immediately grant the prayers of all, He is just. When however, the Mother's name is invoked, though the merits of the suppliant are not such as to deserve that his favor be granted, those of the Mother supply, that he may receive.' Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48.
The BVM is the new Eve. She's the Virgin of the Covenant which God establishes with all humanity in the new creation.
Ok ok.. but NOT the daughter of God, or His FIRST born daughter, <b>where is this in the Bible</b> ?
10- Mary is the spouse and lover of Godhead.
11- Mary is the bride and spouse of God the father.
12- Mary is the spouse and bride of God the son.
13- Mary is the bride and spouse of God the holy spirit.
How on earth will you understand this having not yet grasped the concept/truth of the Most Holy Trinity?
Ok, so this is another mystery. Ok got it we drop this topic as well. <b>“How many we dropped so far” </b> :D
By the Incarnation, the Son of God became Man & entered the world through the BVM. Many people came to worship Christ after Mother Mary gave birth to Him.
St Luke 2:7-20.
None of these verses mentioned that ‘many people worshipped Christ after Mary gave birth to Him”
It is a matter of playing with words FHC, whenever you desire to place the word GOD with Jesus it is totally allowed, but when we also do the same thing you say that we are misquoting and misinterpreting the Bible.
15- Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the throne of God.
Excuse me???
"Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. 'Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son.'" Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 6. SOURCE
"HAIL MARY, BELOVED DAUGHTER OF THE ETERNAL FATHER.
"Hail MARY, admirable Mother of the Son. Hail MARY, faithful Spouse of the Holy Ghost. Hail MARY, my Mother, my loving Mistress, my powerful sovereign. Hail, my joy, my glory, my heart and my soul. Thou art all mine by mercy, and I am Thine by justice. But I am not yet sufficiently Thine. I now give myself wholly to Thee without keeping anything back for myself or others. If Thou seest anything in me which does not belong to Thee, I beseech Thee to take it and make Thyself the absolute Mistress of all that is mine." St. Louis De Montfort, Prayer to Mary. SOURCE
"Jesus 'sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high' (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son -- a refuge so secure and a help so trusty against all dangers that we have nothing to fear or to despair of under her guidance, her patronage, her protection. (Pius IX. in Bull Ineffabilis)." Pope Pius X, in Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1904, #14. SOURCE
<b>By the way, I would like to see from the Bible where Mary sits on her son’s right hand.</b>
"I declare with the saints: Mary is the earthly paradise of Jesus Christ the new Adam, where he became man by the power of the Holy Spirit, in order to accomplish in her wonders beyond our understanding. She is the vast and divine world of God where unutterable marvels and beauties are to be found. She is the magnificence of the Almighty where he hid his only Son, as in his own bosom, and with him everything that is most excellent and precious.
"I say with the saints, the divine Mary is the terrestrial paradise of the New Adam [Jesus], where He was made flesh by the operation of the Holy Ghost, in order to work there incomprehensible marvels. She is the grand and divine world of God, where there are beauties and treasures unspeakable. She is the magnificence of the Most High, where He hid, as in her bosom, His only Son, and in Him all that is most excellent and most precious....
"Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God....
"Be persuaded, then, that the more you look at Mary in your prayers, contemplations, actions, and sufferings, if not with a distinct and definite view, at least with a general and imperceptible one, the more perfectly you will find Jesus Christ, who is always, with Mary, great, powerful, active and incomprehensible - more than in Heaven or in any other creature. Thus, so far from the divine Mary, all absorbed in God, being an obstacle to the perfect in attaining union with God, there has never been up to this time, and there never will be, any creature who will aid us more efficaciously in this great work..." St. Louis-Marie Grignion De Montfort, in True Devotion to Mary, #6, 27, 165 (translated from the original French by Fr. Frederick William Faber, D.D., edited and annotated by the Fathers of the Company of Mary, copyright 1941, published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, Illinois, 61105, ISBN 0-89555-279-5, Library of Congress Catalog Card No: 85-50571, bearing the "Imprimi Potest", "Nihil Obstat" and "Imprimatur" of the Catholic Church).
"Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. 'Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son.'" Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 6. SOURCE
16- God Himself is submissive and obedient to Mary, not only that but He is a subject to her.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God Incarnate, was obedient to His mother as all children ought. Mother Mary pondered all these things in her heart.
St Luke 2:48-51.
Here God becomes Jesus. Why these people don’t make it clear? Why they just don’t use the proper words <b>when describing God</b>?
"Since grace enhances our human nature and glory adds a still greater perfection to grace, it is certain that our Lord remains in heaven just as much the Son of Mary as he was on earth. Consequently <b>he has retained the submissiveness and obedience of the most perfect of all children towards the best of all mothers</b>....When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, <b>even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin</b>, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother's prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will....
"Since the principal mystery celebrated and honoured in this devotion is the mystery of the Incarnation where we find Jesus only in Mary, having become incarnate in her womb, it is appropriate for us to say, 'slavery of Jesus in Mary', of Jesus dwelling enthroned in Mary, according to the beautiful, prayer, recited by so many great souls, 'O Jesus living in Mary'." St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. SOURCE
17- Everything you do, must be done for Mary.
Untrue!
"<b>We must perform all our actions for Mary</b>, which means that as slaves of this noble Queen we will work only for her, promoting her interests and her high renown, and making this the first aim in all our acts, while the glory of God will always be our final end. In everything we must renounce self- love because more often than not, without our being aware of it, selfishness sets itself up as the end of all we work for. We should often repeat from the depths of our heart: 'Dear Mother, it is to please you that I go here or there, that I do this or that, that I suffer this pain or this injury.'" St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #49. SOURCE
20- Mary is the center of the whole world, and so you should praise her, venerate her, honor her, esteem her and WORSHIP HER.
Completely absurd
"From the earliest ages of the Catholic Church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen....
"We have recourse to Mary Our Queen, making known to her those sentiments of filial reverence which are not Ours alone, but which belong to all those who glory in the name of Christian....
"Further: 'O just, O most blessed Joseph), since thou art sprung from a royal line, thou hast been chosen from among all mankind to be spouse of the pure Queen who, in a way which defies description, will give birth to Jesus the king.' In addition: 'I shall sing a hymn to the mother, the Queen, whom I joyously approach in praise, gladly celebrating her wonders in song...Our tongue cannot worthily praise thee, O Lady; for thou who hast borne Christ the king art exalted above the seraphim...Hail, O Queen of the world; hail, O Mary, Queen of us all.'
"We read, moreover, in the Ethiopic Missal: 'O Mary, center of the whole world,...thou art greater than the many-eyed cherubim and the six-winged seraphim...Heaven and earth are filled with the sanctity of thy glory.'...
"<b>Let all Christians, therefore, glory in being subjects of the Virgin Mother of God</b>, who, while wielding royal power, is on fire with a mother's love." Pope Pius XII, in Ad Caeli Reginam (On Proclaiming the Queenship of Mary), Encyclical promulgated on October 11, 1954, #1-2, 28-29, 43.SOURCE
"The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century." Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8. SOURCE
"In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary, whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs....
"The most infallible and indubitable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and the reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady, endeavoring by their words and examples to diminish the worship (or veneration) and love of her, openly or hiddenly, and sometimes by misrepresentation. Alas! God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them, for they are Esaus....
"There are several interior practices to true devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Here are the principle ones, stated compendiously: (1) to honor her as the worthy Mother of God, with the worship of hyperdulia; that is to say, to esteem her and honor her above all the other saints, as the masterpiece of grace, and the first after Jesus Christ, true God and true Man..." St. Louis-Marie Grignion De Montfort, in True Devotion to Mary, #28, 30, 115 (translated from the original French by Fr. Frederick William Faber, D.D., edited and annotated by the Fathers of the Company of Mary, copyright 1941, published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, Illinois, 61105, ISBN 0-89555-279-5, Library of Congress Catalog Card No: 85-50571, bearing the "Imprimi Potest", "Nihil Obstat" and "Imprimatur" of the Catholic Church).
Devotions are helpful but are in no obligatory.
<b>"Devotion to you, O Blessed Virgin, is a means of salvation which God gives to those whom he wishes to save." St. John Damascene (Quoted by St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #40.</b> SOURCE
Please note, you're not the first person on earth & you won't be the last to attack Catholicism.
To tell you honestly, I was shocked when you said that I am attacking Catholicism, not only shocked, but saddened.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on us, Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us.
Peace be with you, Wael!
All I can say is... everyone should fall madly in love with the BVM after reading your post :wub: I'm currently working on a Uni assignment based on Marian devotion & I intend on using those beautiful sayings. Thanks... you actually did me a favour.
Although my post was directed to CC who said that <b>“communion of saints”</b> is a biblical. but anyway, Thanks for your efforts. I really appreciate it.
No worries! I wish you included the quotes/sources in the first place. Now I have to do double the work :lol:
Yes but I want to see how you guys are going to <b>interpret the Bible</b>.
Great! Maybe you'll learn something ;)
This is has nothing to do with reaching God and Jesus through <b>Praying to Mary</b>.
To make my statement clear, please have a look at what St. Alphonsus Ligouri said which clearly shows that <b>you cannot come to God except through Mary</b>…
so is there any clear biblical verses to prove this?
So if praying to Mary is not obligatory, and one can pray to God directly, then his prayers would be of <b>‘little value’</b>
If your simple mind can't get passed the literalistic sense in Scripture then it'll be extremely difficult for you to understand the meaning behind the Wedding at Cana.
If I've told you once I've told you a thousands times... when you take the "text" out of "context" you're left with a "con". If you bothered to read the Saint's quotes in their entirety, the role of the BVM in Catholicism would make sense to you. I recommend you go back & read the whole lot, but of course, there's no chance of that happening, so here are some highlights taken from those exact same paragraphs...
<i>And if this is true of the saints, much more is it true of the intercession of the Mother of God, whose prayers are certainly of more value in his sight than those of all the rest of the inhabitants of heaven together.
</i>
Mary has received a twofold fullness of grace. I the first was the Incarnation of the Word, who was made Man in her most holy womb; the second is that fullness of grace which we receive from God by means of her prayers.
... her prayers are certain to be heard by her Son: 'Go to Mary, I say, without hesitation; the Son will hear the Mother.' And then he says: 'My children, she is the ladder of sinners, she is my chief confidence, she is the whole ground of my hope.'
So that, to invoke the Virgin is not to distrust God's mercy, but to fear our own unworthiness.' St. Thomas, speaking of her dignity, calls it, as it were, infinite: 'From the fact that she is the Mother of God, she has a certain infinite dignity.' So that it may be said with reason, that the prayers of Mary have more power with God than those of all heaven together.
The Eternal Son of God, about to take upon Him our nature for the saving and ennobling of man, and about to consummate thus a mystical union between Himself and all mankind, did not accomplish His design without adding there the free consent of the elect Mother, who represented in some sort all human kind, according to the illustrious and just opinion of St. Thomas, who says that the Annunciation was effected with the consent of the Virgin standing in the place of humanity.
When we pray we will pray in Mary. When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion we will place him in Mary for him to take his delight in her. If we do anything at all, it will be in Mary, and in this way Mary will help us to forget self everywhere and in all things.
I'm speechless!
What this has to do with <b>“through Mary that we attain to the knowledge of Christ"</b>
Haha! You changed the wording of it. But nevertheless, St John the Baptist (in St Elizabeth's womb) felt the presence of his Saviour as soon as the pregnant BVM greeting St Elizabeth. St Elizabeth goes on to say that the BVM believed God who is Truth itself.
The verses mentioned that she is <b>“blessed among the women”</b>, not all heavenly gifts are given through her.
Why did you feel the need to chop the verse in half? The second half of the verse goes like this, "Blessed is the fruit of your womb." The fruit of her womb is Jesus Christ - the Father's Son who possesses all heavenly gifts.
Now I am confuse, one verse of the Bible mentioned that no one comes to the father except through Jesus, you interpreted this verse that you should worship Jesus the son, in order to reach to God the father… <b>so why the interpretation now changed when it comes to Mary?</b> i.e “no one can reach Jesus except through her”.
The BVM is not Divine. We don't worship her. She brought forth the Word Incarnate. The Son took flesh from her. She's truly His mother. Without Mary, we'd have no Jesus.
<b>so no one is sinning amongst you now? Or what this mean. </b>
Sin exists but now we have now been given the means to wash it away with Sanctifying Grace. Evil has been defeated. There's no more "enmity between Satan & the woman" (Genesis 3:15). The BVM is the new Eve.
Anyway, your explanation is different than St Lawrence
"St. Lawrence Justinian asks: 'How can she (Mary) be otherwise than full of grace, who has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and man?'...
"Again, the holy Church calls her ‘the happy gate of heaven;’ for as the same Saint Bernard remarks: ‘As every mandate of grace that is sent by a king passes by the palace-gates, so does every grace that comes from heaven to the world pass through the hands of Mary’ (Serm. iii. In Virg. Nat. D). Saint Bonaventure says that Mary is called ‘the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing by her’ (Exposit. in cap. I. Luc)." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter V "To Thee Do We Sigh". SOURCE
where in your Bible that match with the above.
Here's the text that follows from that quote...
<i>If we implore our Blessed Lady to obtain us a favor, it is not because we distrust the Divine mercy, but rather that we fear our own unworthiness and the absence of proper dispositions; and we recommend ourselves to Mary, that her dignity may supply for our lowliness. He says that we apply to Mary ‘in order that the dignity of the intercessor may supply for our misery. Hence, to invoke the aid of the most Blessed Virgin is not diffidence in the Divine mercy, but dread of our own unworthiness’
</i>
St John 19:26 - but you don't have the brain power & I don't have the time :D
"St. Anselm reminds us that <b>we may obtain mercy more quickly from Mary than from Jesus</b>, because Jesus is also a judge who can punish, while Mary exercises mercy as a patroness. It is not as if Mary were more powerful than Jesus, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Savior, and that He alone by His merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us. He reminds us: <b>'We often obtain more promptly what we ask by invoking Mary than by invoking Jesus</b>. Her Son is lord and judge of all, and discerns the merits of each one; therefore, if He does not immediately grant the prayers of all, He is just. When however, the Mother's name is invoked, though the merits of the suppliant are not such as to deserve that his favor be granted, those of the Mother supply, that he may receive.' Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48.
As wonderful as that quote is, it's not an infallible doctrine. St Alphonsus had a remarkable devotion to the BVM, therefore, I can totally understand where he's coming from, but it would be like someone 500 years from now discovering my opening line of this post & declare in public that St Faith Hope Charity (the St part is a joke :P) believes "everyone should fall madly in love with the BVM"... well yes, FHC thinks so, but Church dogma doesn't.
Ok ok.. but NOT the daughter of God, or His FIRST born daughter, <b>where is this in the Bible</b> ?
God please give me strength.
Who is the Father's first born daughter... Eve! Who is the new Eve... Mary! Therefore, 1+1=2. This is basic, Wael.
Ok, so this is another mystery. Ok got it we drop this topic as well. <b>“How many we dropped so far” </b>
We'll add it to the list - it's almost full :lol:
None of these verses mentioned that ‘many people worshipped Christ after Mary gave birth to Him”
Whoops! Sorry, error on my part... it's actually St Matthew 2:1-12 :blush:
It is a matter of playing with words FHC, whenever you desire to place the word GOD with Jesus it is totally allowed, but when we also do the same thing you say that we are misquoting and misinterpreting the Bible.
Are we having the same conversation? What have I missed?
Anyways... Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate - One Divine Person possessing Two Natures: Divine + Human.
<b>By the way, I would like to see from the Bible where Mary sits on her son’s right hand.</b>
Okay, but next time please say "please" ;)
In Revelation 12:1-2 the BVM is described as a queen. In Revelation 19:16, Jesus Christ is described as King. The Queen sits at the right hand (power) of the King.
By the way, there's nothing in those quotes that suggests the BVM has a divine nature. Please stay focused & stop hallucinating :lol:
She held the Son of God within her womb, therefore her body is the "Ark of the Covenant" where divine life dwells. During the 9 months she was a type of heaven on earth. Please go back & read those quotes again.
Here God becomes Jesus. Why these people don’t make it clear? Why they just don’t use the proper words <b>when describing God</b>?
I'm experiencing a dejavu! Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Son of God. He assumed a human nature, a human, soul, a human mind, a human will. But He never ceased being God. He's fully Divine & fully Human! His two natures were joined in the hypostatic union. Insh a Allah one day you'll understand - I haven't given up hope yet, don't worry!
"<b>We must perform all our actions for Mary</b>, which means that as slaves of this noble Queen we will work only for her, promoting her interests and her high renown, and making this the first aim in all our acts, while the glory of God will always be our final end. In everything we must renounce self- love because more often than not, without our being aware of it, selfishness sets itself up as the end of all we work for. We should often repeat from the depths of our heart: 'Dear Mother, it is to please you that I go here or there, that I do this or that, that I suffer this pain or this injury.'" St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #49. SOURCE
This only applies if you chose to enrol in this particular devotion & consecrate yourself the BVM.
From the same page...
I have already said that this devotion consists in performing all our actions with Mary, in Mary, through Mary, and for Mary.
From the same paragraph...
...the glory of God will always be our final end.
Mary is the center of the whole world, and so you should praise her, venerate her, honor her, esteem her and WORSHIP HER.
Aywah, aywah, aywah, aywah, aywah & NO! Worship is due to God alone. We respect & revere the BVM by paying homage to her but to worship her would be a sin :76:
<b>"Devotion to you, O Blessed Virgin, is a means
of salvation which God gives to those whom he wishes to save." St. John Damascene (Quoted by St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #40.</b> SOURCE
Yes, devotion to the BVM is a (powerful) means... but it's not the only one.
To tell you honestly, I was shocked when you said that I am attacking Catholicism, not only shocked, but saddened.
Haha! You're a clown! I can't believe you just said that. I've never met anyone who criticizes the Church as much as you. Move over Dan Brown...
