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Faith Hope Charity · 03-01-2007, 03:44 PM

To the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Peace be with you!

Quote:I am sorry FHC but there is alot of polytheism in Christianity especially in the Catholic Church.

Look, The Bible and history clearly revealed that there is only ONE GOD with very unique attributes: So there is only one God. but when a person or a religion ascribes these attributes to someone or something other than the God of creation, then they become POLYTHEISTIC. and this is most surely what we find in the practices of the Catholics...

for example, In the Catholic Church Mary is very clearly considered to be holy . now the good catholic person prays to Mary ten times to one every time he says a Rosary. Who is preeminent: Mary or God the Father? You believes that Mary can hear your prayer and at the same time hear the prayer of another Catholic a thousand miles away. If that is true, then Mary is omnipresent! (an attribute of God). You believes that Mary can discern the intent behind the repetitious prayer you recites. If that is true, then Mary is omniscient! Now then, Mary is OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENCE, and OMNIPRESENT just like the Creator. Mary then, according to Roman Catholic teaching, is A GOD! dont think that i am a crazy FHC, just have a look at what official catholics said about Mary...

Thanks for opening my eyes, Wael. I'll worship in a Mosque from now on.

Mate, I don't know where you copied & pasted the above dribble but I found the same dribbe (word for word) on a few anti-Catholic sites, two of which are:

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roma...sm/RC1199W4.htm

http://www.reachingcatholics.org/polytheistic.html

Next time you borrow material, please acknowledge the author. You could be sued or imprisoned for violating copyright laws. That's the last thing I need on my conscience.

:P :P :P

Okie dokie, all jokes aside now, let's get down to business. It's a little difficult to comment on these one-liners because I don't have the preceding or following lines but I'll do my best to make sense of them. I'll also keep it very basic...

Quote:"God has entrusted the keys and treasures of heaven to Mary." Thomas Aquinas

Jesus Christ entrusted the keys & treasures of Heaven to the Church. The BVM is a "type" or symbol of Holy Mother Church because of her immaculate holiness. We're called to imitate the BVM in her sinlessness. She's the ultimate example of how we are to obey God. She & the Church guide the faithful to Heaven.

Quote:"Who can worthily thank thee and adequately praise thee, oh Blessed Virgin, who by thy fiat has saved a lost world." St. Augustine

By saying "yes" to God, the BVM was the vessel for the Saviour. She's known as co-redemptorist. No Mary, no Jesus.

Quote:"The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary." Pope Pius IX

Hope, Grace & Salvation = Jesus Christ, who took flesh from the BVM. She's the Holy Tabernacle who carried the Son of God within her.

Quote:"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

The BVM is often called the "Finder of Grace", therefore, when we lose the Grace of God through sin, we should seek to recover it through the BVM who found it from day one.

Quote:"No one ever finds Christ but with and through Mary. Whoever seeks Christ apart from Mary seeks Him in vain." St. Bonaventure

No Mary, no Jesus. By the BVM, the Son of God descended from Heaven into the world, so that by her we might ascend from earth into Heaven. Everything she says & does leads us to her Son.

Quote:"All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV

The BVM is our defence on earth. Why? Because unlike the first Eve who gave into temptation, the New Eve, the BVM, crushed the head of Satan. By asking our mother to protect us, we have nothing to fear.

Quote:"What will it cost you, oh Mary, to hear our prayer? What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned Queen at the right hand of your son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of hell, and you alone, oh Mary, save us from the hands of Satan." Pope Pius Xl

This is beautiful... "O Mary, blessed are you among women, for you have brought forth life for all. The mother of our race brought punishment into the world; the Mother of Our Lord brought salvation to the world. Eve was the originator of sin, Mary was the originator of merit" (St Augustine).

Quote:"Mary, not one of thy devout servants has ever perished: may I, too, Be saved!" Pope Benedict XV

I'm up to the last quote & still no verse from the Bible. Shame on me :o

His mother said to the servents, "Do whatever He tells you" (St John 2:5).

You can't go wrong bearing the mark of the BVM's servant.

Quote:This is plain worship to Mary FHC, worship to other that God Almighty and so this is polytheism

From an Islamic point of view, it might appear to be polytheism... but honestly it's not. Muslims love the BVM too! In fact so many Muslims make a pilgrimage to 'Our Lady of Fatima' in Portugal. She's the link that joins us together :) Look out though... as Archbishop Fulteen Sheen (RIP) once said, "She is forever a ‘traitor’, in the sense that she will not accept any devotion for herself, but will always bring anyone who is devoted to her to her Divine Son." ;)

Mary, Queen of all the Saints... please pray for us!

Faith Hope Charity · 03-01-2007, 04:40 PM

To the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Peace be with you!

Quote:What bowing down to the images of Mary has anything to do with honoring her? What praying to Mary has anything to do with your devotion to her?

What I really feel is, that you guys do worship those saints but you are just using different terms to describe your actions. (i.e instead of worship you use honor) but the acts of worship are clearly seen in your devotion to her.

Seriously man, why would we want to break the 1st Commandment?

I think I addressed veneration in post 16.

Take it or leave it, dude - no pressure :)

Quote:Some people “Catholics of course” begged Mary to save their children from some kind of sickness, then when their children were healed; they truly thanked and worshipped Mary instead of the One who created her!! Can you see the danger?

Catholics beg for Our Lady's intercessions. Like any mother she cares about her children & will do whatever it takes to save them. She has strong connections to her Son ;)

Quote:Plus as I pointed in my previous post, you have millions of prayers a second being offered to Mary. People in Mexico, Russia, Europe, America, Philippines and all over the world, are praying the Rosary, asking Mary to be there at the hour of their death, asking her to guide them, help them, teach them, secure for them eternal redemption (something catholic believes that even Jesus did not do) and imploring her to come dwell in their hearts as though she was able to fulfill all these requests! Subhan Allah…

We ask the BVM to "pray for us now & at the hour of our death". We ask her to guide, help & teach us to follow her Son. This can only be done through her prayers.

Secure eternal redemption? :blink: I think you mean salvation :)

Dwell in our hearts? :blink: The Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts :)

Quote:You and your fellow Catholic may deny that Mary is a god (or any other saints that you guys pray to) but by asking all these things of her, she would have to be God to do them, and since she is not God according to your beliefs, then you should direct your prayers and supplications to the ONLY ONE WHO HEARS IT
.

I certainly hope all Catholics deny the Saints are gods :lol:

The only gift Our Lady can grant us is her extremely powerful intercession.

There's no polytheism in Catholicism, Wael. I promise you!

Insh a Allah, we'll all join the Saints in Heaven & offer prayers for our brothers & sisters on earth.

God bless.

wel_mel_2 · 03-02-2007, 12:02 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:Hmmm... define prayer???

Why should I define prayer? You can look up any dictionary and you will see that Prayer means “a request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity” or “a religious service at which people gather to pray together” or “an earnest hope or wish”.

Quote:You see, Catholics believe there are souls (Saints) in Heaven.

Whatever, that doesn’t give you the right to pray to other that God.

Quote:They hear because they're in Heaven.

So they are omnipresent, an attribute of God.

Quote:It's fitting to call Mary the Mother of God because she's the Mother of Jesus who is a Divine Person.

Who are we to say what title should fit Mary if God Himself doesn’t give her such a name?

Quote:Okay, let me try something else :lol: When we pray to them, we're really praying with them, because the only thing they can do for us is present our prayers to God. Saints aren't miracle workers. God performs miracles through the Saints.

When you are praying to them, you are really praying to them, not with them… here is what I am talking about, you are doing something, but trying hard to decorate it and explain that you are not really doing this thing!!!!

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 03-02-2007, 01:17 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Thanks for opening my eyes, Wael. I'll worship in a Mosque from now on.

This is either a lie, or mockery, in both cases it is not funny at all.

Quote:Mate, I don't know where you copied & pasted the above dribble but I found the same dribbe (word for word) on a few anti-Catholic sites,

Yes I did copy and paste those lines, because they represent my beliefs regarding this subject. Sometimes all of us do the same thing (without mentioning the source), so instead of finding some faults in my presentations, refute them!!!

and by the way, to be honest without FHC, I really did not understand anything of your comments on Catholics quotes that i've posted earlier, the quotes are quite clearer.

Quote:From an Islamic point of view, it might appear to be polytheism... but honestly it's not.

From an Islamic view point it is polytheism, even from a Christian view point. There are more than 1000 sects of Christianity; all of them disagree with the Catholic practices. The only people who might agree with you are Hindus and Buddhists and any anyone else who pray to other than God.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 03-02-2007, 01:50 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Seriously man, why would we want to break the 1st Commandment?

Seriously??? you are not only breaking the 1st commandment FHC.

Look at this image…

[Image: pope4.jpg]

How could anyone bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command you in the second of the ten commandments NOT to make unto yourslef ANY graven images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" -Exodus 20:4

It says in plain English and need not for anyone interpretation that you are NOT to make unto yourself ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven!!! and you are saying that Mary is in heaven. you are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! No matter how hard you try to stretch the meaning to suite your desire, it is against the commandment of God.

and here's another commandment was broken.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." -Exodus 20:5

But JPII didn’t mind to bow down to a statue.

You can argue whether or not you are worshipping Mary by bowing down to her; but one thing is for certain, God has commanded you in Exodus 20:5 NOT TO BOW DOWN to her. Even if you are not worshipping Mary, you ARE SINNING if you bow down to her because the Bible strictly forbids it!

Quote:Catholics beg for Our Lady's intercessions. Like any mother she cares about her children & will do whatever it takes to save them. She has strong connections to her Son

You must understand that God Almighty (even if you call him Father), can never be compared by our real fathers and mothers here on earth. When we ask God for something, even if we were sinners, he listen to our beseeches attentively and need not for any mediator to intercede or explain one’s position, He wisely take the decision alone without anyone else' influence. You are degrading God to a very low level, how can God decide to punish someone for example but then Mary will interfere, “Oh please Lord forgive this man, he begged me and I am the mother of Jesus so please don’t punish him” , and So God will follow her. No FHC, God listen to our prayers and He is the Only One that can take the right decision, he does not need to listen to anyone else's opinion.

Quote:We ask the BVM to "pray for us now & at the hour of our death". We ask her to guide, help & teach us to follow her Son. This can only be done through her prayers.
Secure eternal redemption? I think you mean salvation

Dwell in our hearts? The Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts

Again, I don’t understand what you just said.

Quote:I certainly hope all Catholics deny the Saints are gods

The do deny that they are not gods, but they do worship them… The don’t say that they worship them, but they certainly do in their actions.

Salam

Wael

Faith Hope Charity · (This post was last modified: 03-02-2007, 05:24 AM by Faith Hope Charity.)

To the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Quote:Seriously??? you are not only breaking the 1st commandment FHC.

Not by venerating the Saints. I broke the first Commandment a few weeks ago when I chose T.V. over prayer. Thank God for the Sacrament of Confession.

Quote:Look at this image…

A picture speaks a thousand words! I could stare at it all day. Thanks for posting it :)

Quote:How could anyone bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command you in the second of the ten commandments NOT to make unto yourslef ANY graven images.

We're merely praying to God through the intercession of that particular Saint.

I never accuse Muslims of worshipping the Kabba, or Iblis worshipping Adam.

The Second Commandment is "Do not take the Lord's Name in vain".

Quote:It says in plain English and need not for anyone interpretation that you are NOT to make unto yourself ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven!!! and you are saying that Mary is in heaven. you are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! No matter how hard you try to stretch the meaning to suite your desire, it is against the commandment of God.

Wael, I hate to break it to you, but you don't know the O/T as well as you think you do, Mate :lol:

Ever heard of the bronze serpent, ark of the covenant, or cherubim???

The Incarnation of God has ushered in a new "economy" of images (CCC 1159). Before Christ's Life, Death & Resurrection, there were no souls in Heaven. The gates were closed. Now they're open. Praise Jesus!

The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, 'the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,' and 'whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.' Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is (CCC 2132).

Quote:You can argue whether or not you are worshipping Mary by bowing down to her; but one thing is for certain, God has commanded you in Exodus 20:5 NOT TO BOW DOWN to her. Even if you are not worshipping Mary, you ARE SINNING if you bow down to her because the Bible strictly forbids it!

If we were bowing down to her as though she's a god, then you'd be absolutely right!

Quote:You must understand that God Almighty (even if you call him Father), can never be compared by our real fathers and mothers here on earth. When we ask God for something, even if we were sinners, he listen to our beseeches attentively and need not for any mediator to intercede or explain one’s position, He wisely take the decision alone without anyone else' influence. You are degrading God to a very low level, how can God decide to punish someone for example but then Mary will interfere, “Oh please Lord forgive this man, he begged me and I am the mother of Jesus so please don’t punish him” , and So God will follow her. No FHC, God listen to our prayers and He is the Only One that can take the right decision, he does not need to listen to anyone else's opinion.

But you said earlier that Muslims pray FOR each other. Why's that necessary? Can't the petitioners just pray for themselves? Same thing, Wael. We believe that the Saints are alive in Heaven. Their prayers are powerful because they enjoy the Beatific Vision. We glorify the Saints because God has glorified Himself in them.

Quote:Again, I don’t understand what you just said.

No duh :lol: Think harder!

Quote:The do deny that they are not gods, but they do worship them… The don’t say that they worship them, but they certainly do in their actions.

Wael, you're not all-knowing (an attribute of Allah only). Please don't judge a book by its cover.

Peace & blessings!

Faith Hope Charity · 03-02-2007, 05:01 AM

To the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Quote:This is either a lie, or mockery, in both cases it is not funny at all.

I have no problem whatsoever praying in a mosque - after all, Christians, Muslims & Jews worship the same true God ;) But admittedly, it was just a joke - not a mockery though! After everything you put me through, I deserve to make a joke every now & again. Don't take it to heart, please!

Quote:Yes I did copy and paste those lines, because they represent my beliefs regarding this subject. Sometimes all of us do the same thing (without mentioning the source), so instead of finding some faults in my presentations, refute them!!!

Haha! Again, it was a joke! I even poked my tongue out three times to make it obvious :P :P :P

I can't refute them in a way that satisfies you, sorry! I can only be true to myself & the faith.

Quote:and by the way, to be honest without FHC, I really did not understand anything of your comments on Catholics quotes that i've posted earlier, the quotes are quite clearer.

No worries! I can live with that :) There's only so much I can do. In the end it's up to you.

Quote:From an Islamic view point it is polytheism, even from a Christian view point. There are more than 1000 sects of Christianity; all of them disagree with the Catholic practices. The only people who might agree with you are Hindus and Buddhists and any anyone else who pray to other than God.

I'm not a Catholic because I want to please the world. Quite the opposite actually. I belong to God.

Quote:Why should I define prayer? You can look up any dictionary and you will see that Prayer means “a request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity” or “a religious service at which people gather to pray together” or “an earnest hope or wish”.

I wasn't after a text book definition. I wanted to get a better idea of what prayer is in Islam. You can't understand Catholic practice if you're constantly comparing it to Islam because you'll automatically approach the faith with many reservations.

Quote:So they are omnipresent, an attribute of God.

"The Saints in Heaven look at God 'face to face'. Whatever they 'see' or 'hear' from us on Earth comes to them via their vision of God. Hence, they will hear or see whatever God makes known to them. If God wants them to hear a million prayers at once, then they will."

Quote:Who are we to say what title should fit Mary if God Himself doesn’t give her such a name?

Theology is faith seeking understanding. So long as we're not contradicting God, we're allowed to Theologize.

Quote:When you are praying to them, you are really praying to them, not with them… here is what I am talking about, you are doing something, but trying hard to decorate it and explain that you are not really doing this thing!!!!

We treat our Saints like family members not gods.

I use nothing but truth & facts to decorate my beliefs. I'm not trying to market Catholicism :lol: It is what it is. Take it or leave it!

God bless.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 03-02-2007, 06:11 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Assalamo Alikum FHC... its getting hot in here huh :D

Quote:Not by venerating the Saints.

I already said it once, that venerating or revering saints has nothing to do with bowing down to them and asking their help. You should better follow their example and this is the best way to venerate them.

Quote:A picture speaks a thousand words!.

Only one word is enough FHC. Worshipping an idol who cant even listen to your prayer.

Quote:We're merely praying to God through the intercession of that particular Saint.

Same as what Pagans said, so there is no difference between you and the Pagan Arabs who once said that we honor those saints in order to bring us closer to God. Polytheism.

Quote:I never accuse Muslims of worshipping the Kabba, or Iblis worshipping Adam.

Oh please, no one dare to accuse us for praying TOWARDS the Ka’bah because they know very well that no Muslim on earth worship it. No Muslim will ever stand infront of the Ka’bah asking it to help him and be there for him when he die, no one will ever ask the Ka’bah to pray for us. Almost every non Muslim knows very well that Ka’bah is the direction in which Muslim face when they offer their prayers to God alone.

Quote:Wael, I hate to break it to you, but you don't know the O/T as well as you think you do, Mate

This is all what we got from you guys, but anyway, your fellow Christains told me before the same thing, that we will NEVER understand any of the scriptures unless we are given the gift called ‘holy ghost’

Quote:The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, 'the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,' and 'whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.' Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is (CCC 2132).

Same as what Hindus told me.

Quote:If we were bowing down to her as though she's a god, then you'd be absolutely right!

The commandment doesn’t say whether you bow down to her as God or not. it says DO NOT BOW DOWN TO ANY IMAGE. That’s it.

Quote:But you said earlier that Muslims pray FOR each other. Why's that necessary? Can't the petitioners just pray for themselves? Same thing, Wael. We believe that the Saints are alive in Heaven. Their prayers are powerful because they enjoy the Beatific Vision. We glorify the Saints because God has glorified Himself in them.

First of all, we ask ALIVE PEOPLE ON EARTH TO PRAY FOR US.

Secondly who are you to judge whether this saint was granted paradise or not?

Lastly, those who are now dead or alive in heaven have their own issues to care about and they do not hear your prayers at all. In fact God is over watching you while you are praying to His creation, so you better direct your prayer to God alone and ask Him to forgive you.

Quote:Wael, you're not all-knowing (an attribute of Allah only). Please don't judge a book by its cover.

I am aware of what am saying FHC, don’t forget that my wife was a Catholic. You will never admit that you worship anything beside God, but in practice you are totally repeating the history of Paganism.

I am sorry to offend you by saying this, but I cant be a hypocrite. Every action in the Catholic way of worship is taken directly from olden days Pagan religions.

Quote:But admittedly, it was just a joke - not a mockery though! After everything you put me through, I deserve to make a joke every now & again. Don't take it to heart, please!

Its ok I believe you.

Quote:I'm not a Catholic because I want to please the world. Quite the opposite actually. I belong to God.

I respect your sincerity, but I strongly asking you to think deeply about what we are saying, we are not asking you a reward for this, just think with your mind and leave your emotions aside.

Quote:I wasn't after a text book definition. I wanted to get a better idea of what prayer is in Islam.

Prayers in Islam is SALAH, which is to be done in the Name of God Alone, then we start praising and thanking Him Alone, Glorifying His name Alone, asserting that we worship none but Him alone, and that if we ask of help, we ask of Him alone, then offer supplication to Him that He may guide us to the straight path, bow down to Him Glorying His name, prostrate to Him with humbleness, Witnessing that there is no other god or anything worthy of worship but Him, and that Muhammad pbuh is His slave and messenger.

Quote:You can't understand Catholic practice if you're constantly comparing it to Islam because you'll automatically approach the faith with many reservations.

You know well, that I am the last one here to compare Catholic practices with Islam, and that’s why I use the Bible when discussing with Christians, but you guys are “reading the Bible through somebody else’s glasses”. :D

Quote:Theology is faith seeking understanding. So long as we're not contradicting God, we're allowed to Theologize.

That means I have full right to call Jesus of the Bible whom you believe to be God with these titles, for example:

“God the carpenter”

“The sleeping God”

“The thirsty God”

“The weeping God”

“The tempting God”

“The dead God”

If all these terms are offensive to you, then calling Mary “mother of God” is not less offensive than the above terms.

Quote:We treat our Saints like family members not gods.

Yes I already said that you will never admit that they are gods, actions speak FHC.

Salam and try to give sometimes to your university. :P

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · 03-02-2007, 01:27 PM

To the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Assalamo Alikum FHC... its getting hot in here huh :D

Wa alaykum assalam... the roof is on fire, man :D

Two things straight of the bat:

1. How do you treat the Qu'ran? Do you throw it around & place ordinary items on top of it? Would you let your child scribble all over it, rip out pages & scrunch them up - considering it's just a book? Or are you more delicate with the Qur'an because you believe it's holy???

2. When Nike pitched a new shoe design with the name "Allah" (in Arabic) stitched on, the Muslim world went hysterical & cried out, "No, we can't walk on Allah!" So Nike withdrew it's proposal. But isn't is just a piece of material???

Do you see the significance now?

I already said it once, that venerating or revering saints has nothing to do with bowing down to them and asking their help. You should better follow their example and this is the best way to venerate them.

Following their example is what it's primarily all about! We bow as a sign of honour & humility - in similar fashion to how someone bows before the Queen of England.

Only one word is enough FHC. Worshipping an idol who cant even listen to your prayer.

Good grief! WHO'S WORSHIPPING AN IDOL??? Cut it out, Wael... pretty please!

Same as what Pagans said, so there is no difference between you and the Pagan Arabs who once said that we honor those saints in order to bring us closer to God. Polytheism. 

Pagans don't believe in Saints nor do they believe in One True God.

Look, you could label Catholics as Satan worshippers for all I care - it's not going to change the fact that Catholics worship God & only God.

Oh please, no one dare to accuse us for praying TOWARDS the Ka’bah because they know very well that no Muslim on earth worship it. No Muslim will ever stand infront of the Ka’bah asking it to help him and be there for him when he die, no one will ever ask the Ka’bah to pray for us. Almost every non Muslim knows very well that Ka’bah is the direction in which Muslim face when they offer their prayers to God alone.

Then why do you face it? :conf06: What if a Muslim prayed facing the opposite direction?

This is all what we got from you guys, but anyway, your fellow Christains told me before the same thing, that we will NEVER understand any of the scriptures unless we are given the gift called ‘holy ghost’ 

Mate, I think you mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit - wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude & fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:1-3).

The commandment doesn’t say whether you bow down to her as God or not. it says DO NOT BOW DOWN TO ANY IMAGE. That’s it.

You have no advantage over Satan in quoting Scripture, Wael. The meaning lies in interpretation. You out of all people should know this... is it Iman or Ummah??? Why makes Sunnis right & Shiites wrong?

First of all, we ask ALIVE PEOPLE ON EARTH TO PRAY FOR US.

Secondly who are you to judge whether this saint was granted paradise or not?

Lastly, those who are now dead or alive in heaven have their own issues to care about and they do not hear your prayers at all. In fact God is over watching you while you are praying to His creation, so you better direct your prayer to God alone and ask Him to forgive you.

We ask ALIVE souls too!

God judges. The Church publicly declares it (purely for our benefit).

The main issue Saints in Heaven are concerned with is helping to populate God's Kingdom with all souls - ours!

Only God can forgive.

I am aware of what am saying FHC, don’t forget that my wife was a Catholic. You will never admit that you worship anything beside God, but in practice you are totally repeating the history of Paganism.

Why would I admit something that isn't true :lol:

My brother's girlfriend's a Muslim (Alawite). That doesn't make him an expert on her religion.

I am sorry to offend you by saying this, but I cant be a hypocrite. Every action in the Catholic way of worship is taken directly from olden days Pagan religions.

What about the intention?

I respect your sincerity, but I strongly asking you to think deeply about what we are saying, we are not asking you a reward for this, just think with your mind and leave your emotions aside.

Honestly, I'm so glad you exposed me to the Islamic perception of Catholic worship. Thanks! It'll help me a lot in the future.

Prayers in Islam is SALAH, which is to be done in the Name of God Alone, then we start praising and thanking Him Alone, Glorifying His name Alone, asserting that we worship none but Him alone, and that if we ask of help, we ask of Him alone, then offer supplication to Him that He may guide us to the straight path, bow down to Him Glorying His name, prostrate to Him with humbleness, Witnessing that there is no other god or anything worthy of worship but Him, and that Muhammad pbuh is His slave and messenger.

Nice!

Why only Muhammad (PBUH) & not the other "messengers"???

Are your private intentions (dua) included in Salat?

You know well, that I am the last one here to compare Catholic practices with Islam, and that’s why I use the Bible when discussing with Christians, but you guys are “reading the Bible through somebody else’s glasses”. :D

You're not doing yourself or the Holy Bible any favours :P

"Reading through somebody else's glasses" ... I don't get it! But let's stay on topic for a change - hehe!

That means I have full right to call Jesus of the Bible whom you believe to be God with these titles, for example:

“God the carpenter”

“The sleeping God”

“The thirsty God”

“The weeping God”

“The tempting God”

“The dead God”

If all these terms are offensive to you, then calling Mary “mother of God” is not less offensive than the above terms.

I can't stop you from doing/saying anything, Wael.

The only title from above that's not quite right is the last one ;) The rest possess some kind of truth (more or less).

I don't get offended when people reject Catholic beliefs... it just frustrates me that people criticize Catholicism for what it's not, not for what it is.

No big deal, I guess! Catholics can draw strength from it.

Yes I already said that you will never admit that they are gods, actions speak FHC.

You can say that again & again & again! I only admit truth.

My actions reflects my beliefs. If you don't like what you see, turn away :P

Salam and try to give sometimes to your university. :P

Haha! Friends come first :)

Salam to you too!

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 03-03-2007, 01:55 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Here we go again... :D

Quote:1. How do you treat the Qu'ran? Do you throw it around & place ordinary items on top of it? Would you let your child scribble all over it, rip out pages & scrunch them up - considering it's just a book? Or are you more delicate with the Qur'an because you believe it's holy???
2. When Nike pitched a new shoe design with the name "Allah" (in Arabic) stitched on, the Muslim world went hysterical & cried out, "No, we can't walk on Allah!" So Nike withdrew it's proposal. But isn't is just a piece of material???

Do you see the significance now?

I also don’t throw the Bible around and treat it with disrespect. Although I don’t consider it holy, but since my Christians friends do have faith in it, then it become obligatory on me to show respect to their beliefs… however, I do not show any respect to some woods and stones made by human beings.

Quote:We bow as a sign of honour & humility - in similar fashion to how someone bows before the Queen of England.

No one bowed down to Prophet Muhammad pbuh (the best of all creation) when he was the ruler of Arabia. Do you see the significance now? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh even warned us not to make out of his grave a place of worship, to avoid the practice of polytheism.

Quote:Good grief! WHO'S WORSHIPPING AN IDOL???

The one who bow down to it…

You know what? I will have no problem if you bow down out of respect to Mary may Allah be pleased with her when you see her in real, you may even kiss her hands and feets, but to touch a piece of stone ,talk to it , bow down to it and ask for its help??? That is not acceptable.

Quote:Pagans don't believe in Saints nor do they believe in One True God.

Absolutely wrong; Pagans during Muhammad’s pbuh time did believe in One True God and they even called Him Allah, but they associate with Him partners/saints in prayers and offering. Exactly what Catholics doing today.

Quote:Look, you could label Catholics as Satan worshippers for all I care - it's not going to change the fact that Catholics worship God & only God.

True, they do believe in one and only God, but at the same time, they also pray to other people along with the one true God. which was practiced by pagans.

Quote:Then why do you face it? i.e the Ka'bah

Because it was chosen by God to unite all Muslims into one direction, and we are not to question God why you chose this place exactly, can you as God why He chose Mount Sinai to speak with Moses and not the Everest? We are Muslims (i.e he who submits his will to the will of God) and since that was His will, then we obey it, and one of His will is to worship and call upon Him only and no His creation.

Muslims even during Prophet Muhammad’s pbuh time stood up on the top of the Ka’bah to give the call for prayer, which idol worshipper today will stand on the top of the idol that he worship?

Quote:We ask ALIVE souls too!

"Say: Think to yourselves, if Allaah's punishment came upon you or the Final Hour, would you then call on other than Allaah? (Reply) if you are truthful."
Qur’an 6:40

Quote:Why only Muhammad (PBUH) & not the other "messengers"???

By bearing witness that Muhammad pbuh is the messenger of God, you are making a commitment with God Almighty that you have accepted the message that he brought to humanity. The only one thing Muhammad pbuh was asking his people is to believe in only One True God, and that he was truly His messenger.

Quote:Are your private intentions (dua) included in Salat?

Yes, we may also offer Du’a and call upon God anytime we desire. In fact, in every action that Muslim take in his daily life, we do have a prayer; when we wake up, when we sleep, when we go to the bathroom, when we come out, when we eat, when we finish eating, when we go out of our home and when we come in, when we drive a car or take any transportation, when we see some calamity, when we enter the mosque, when we come out, and on and on…

Quote:You're not doing yourself or the Holy Bible any favours

Maybe not to the Bible, but indeed I am doing to myself a favor by studying your Bible.

Quote:"Reading through somebody else's glasses" ... I don't get it!

Oh you are the first Christian who don’t get this one. Ok try hard and you will get it

Quote:The only title from above that's not quite right is the last one The rest possess some kind of truth (more or less).

Disturbing. 

Salam and have a nice day.

Wael.

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