Passion of Christ

[Dan]

Bismillah


"I know enough about you."


Ditto... I guess. I have a hunch that in person we would get along better than on the Net. But who knows? I know that if I was jumping the pond that I would at least try to meet up with you... maybe?


"Poor Dan, why so agitated brother ?"


Definately misread my mood... not mad... just stating what I thought you would say about me and my beliefs, correct? (I got a family to agitate me... am I right or what? ;) )


"Nonsense."


Balderdash!


"You can already see the shift Dan. The proof is right there in front of you. Just open your eyes lad."


I see people converting to Islam... It is probably going to have to do with who we hang out with. In a sociology course I took (uh oh... dime store sociologist alert), we studied the Salem witch trials. Initially there were few accusations but as the fervor rose so did the number of witches "found." We will always find what we are looking for. That will be 10 cents please... or quid? me not know conversion... maybe I need a vacation?

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father (Love) Son (Grace) Holy Spirit (Truth).

"Wael, Muslimah & Dan have expressed different viewpoints regarding this issue"


No different viewpoints, just trying to explain the One who is Comparable to None, the Unique. We are linear beings bound by space and time. You are questioning how the Creator of All can Know everything yet we still have freewill, correct?

Not quite, Dan! We both agree that God/Allah is Omniscient. I'm just trying to understand the problem of evil in Islam.

Of course, there are many holes in that comparison because Allah is Uncomparable. That might be hard for a christian to understand since according to you God sweat, felt pain, deficated, fatigued, ate, etc...

You're spot on!


Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to Allah in the Qur'an, but He is ultimately outside of the world. He is only Majesty... never Immanuel - God with us.


Islam's not a religion of redemption. There's no room for the Cross or the Resurrection. That's why it's extremely hard for Christians to understand Islam - the whole nine yards - all the way from Adam to Paradise. But I'm genuinely trying my best.


Peace & blessings.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Creator Redeemer Sanctifier.


Assalamu alykum, umm Zachariah!


I haven't forgotten you :) Sorry about the delay.

Can I read about this lost likeness in the Bible?

Original Sin, darl. First few chapters of Genesis.

I understand this. But what does then begotten mean?

Uncreated. Of the same substance.

There are Christians that believe that Jesus pbuh is God incarnated. And to me as a Muslimah, trying not to see this scenario as 'not another God' fails every time. So praying to Jesus pbuh/God seems to me, like praying to two Gods. One invisable and one visable.


Good lessons to partake of.


''Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." The Qur'an 3:31


''Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious'' The Qur'an 4:36

Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate. It's inappropriate to call Him "partner". Please check out my thread under Discussion of Beliefs for the theology behind the Most Holy Trinity & Incarnation. These truths are extremely hard for Muslims to accept. You're not alone.

Very true. Truly you cannot be a slave, you cannot submit to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala if you have not understood Who He is. That is not possible. It is a cooperation between the mind and soul and heart to come to that point. Then you are a true believer inshaAllah.

Amen! By the Grace of God we meet Him first through knowledge, followed by love, then submission & finally true happiness!

I would say reason.


Of course animals are to be valued and cherised too.


Reminds me of a hadith that speaks of a woman that has had a cat and treated it very badly and she is therefore sent to Hell. Sorry haven't checked the correct reference here. And that speaks volumes, don't you agree?

Wow! Ummm... Christians are taught to respect all of God's creatures but animals are lower than humans, therefore, we have dominion over them. I'm not sure about being condemned to hell for mistreating a cat, but I guess only Allah (SWT) can judge us.

That is your conlusion. How do you know, since He is the Omnipotent and All-Knowing that He did not plan this? The lesson learnt in the Garden is a lesson as I see it. Listen, learn and follow. If you fail, you can repent and ask for forgivness. But you must always stay on the right path.

Because like you mentioned above, we have reason. Faith can never contradict reason. I agree about the lesson in the Garden. I'm still dumbfounded as to why Adam & Eve remained on earth & we're born in the same state as them but in a different realm.

Why should we be tested in Paradise? What is the purpose?

We can't be tested in the Beatific Vision according to Christianity. Paradise is perfection... free from evil.

True, but He is the creator, isn't He? He can create whatever He likes. He will not ask for our permission before doing so.

True true true! But logically, the one thing God won't/can't do is contradict Himself. If He's All-Good... then He won't/can't be bad.

Yes I am aware of this part. In Islam he is a Jinn.


If you want to read more about this issue, I suggest,


http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html

Thanks! I certainly will.


No jinns in Christianity, by the way.

Since death is given to us by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala I would say yes.

:banghead: :o :conf06: :blink:


Insh a Allah Dan, Muslimah & Wael are reading this & the 4 of you will eventually help me piece the puzzle together.


umm Zachariah, you're an absolute sweetheart!!! A kind, gentle & warm person. God bless you & your family.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Begotten



Uncreated. Of the same substance.

How did you come with this Definition? According to the KJV dictionary of the Bible the word <i>begotten</i> means <b>"To have born; brought forth"</b> which is the opposite of Uncreated, because Uncreated means eternal, and being born is contradictory to the term eternal, so the word begotten can never mean uncreated.


Salam


Wael

[SisterJennifer]

Why don't you examine muslim behaviour when they get upset at something ? Say cartoons of mohammad for example.

I remember after this happened our first reaction was to invite the non-Muslim community to an open house in our masjid where we had a good interfaith discussion. Alot of the mosques not only here but worldwide did the same. There was a large outreach effort. I know im probably far off wherever this discussion has now turned, but I felt to point this out. I guess depending on where you choose to look you find reaction differed so it wont be smart to look at the whole situation through horse goggles.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Bismillah:


How did you come with this Definition? According to the KJV dictionary of the Bible the word <i>begotten</i> means <b>"To have born; brought forth"</b> which is the opposite of Uncreated, because Uncreated means eternal, and being born is contradictory to the term eternal, so the word begotten can never mean uncreated.


Salam


Wael

Oh really, Mr wel_mel_2??? I hate to use Islamic revelations to convict you but doesn't the Qur'an say Allah "begets not"???


''Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;


Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


<b>He begetteth not</b>, nor is He begotten;


And there is none like unto Him. '' The Qur'an 112


How can "beget" be the opposite of "uncreated"??? Are you trying to say that Allah doesn't create???


I don't have a problem with the term "born" so long as it's used properly... <i>eternally born of the Father</i>.


Perhaps you should only refer to the KJV version when conversing with Christians who read/study it. I certainly wouldn't ask a Shiite about the Sunni tradition. Please don't get me wrong, I love my Protestant brethren with all my heart but unfortunately we don't see eye to eye on a lot of doctrines :(


Take care & God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Oh really, Mr wel_mel_2??? I hate to use Islamic revelations to convict you but doesn't the Qur'an say Allah "begets not"???
''Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;


Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;


And there is none like unto Him. '' The Qur'an 112


How can "beget" be the opposite of "uncreated"??? Are you trying to say that Allah doesn't create???

NO NO my <i>smart</i> one, don’t trap me please hehehehe… :D :D :D


You know <b>very very very well </b> what you mean when you say <i>UNCREATED</i>, you do believe that Jesus existed before all ages and before all times, you believe that he was the creator and no one creates him. And using the term <b>UNCREATED</b> you are referring to God Almighty which is Jesus, but you make us to understand that <i>begotten and uncreated </i> are one and the same thing which is totally WORNG...


God ALmighty created all of us with the command “BE” and we were, He does not need to beget any children.


So don’t play games huh… :D Begotten does not mean uncreated. Ok.

Perhaps you should only refer to the KJV version when conversing with Christians who read/study it. I certainly wouldn't ask a Shiite about the Sunni tradition. Please don't get me wrong, I love my Protestant brethren with all my heart but unfortunately we don't see eye to eye on a lot of doctrines

I still insist on using any Bible as long as there is no proof at all on the authenticity of any version, if you declare right now in plain English that all versions of the Bible are not the word of God except the RCV, then I will use no other version but the RCV at least when discussing with you, but you cant even admit that.


Even if you ask the Shi'a to qutoe you any verse from the Qur'an, they will use one and only Qur'an, we do not have <b>"Qur'anic King James Version"</b>...


Salam and stay cool.


Wael

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Creator Redeemer Sanctifier.


May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you!

NO NO my <i>smart</i> one, don’t trap me please hehehehe… :D :D :D


You know <b>very very very well </b> what you mean when you say <i>UNCREATED</i>, you do believe that Jesus existed before all ages and before all times, you believe that he was the creator and no one creates him. And using the term <b>UNCREATED</b> you are referring to God Almighty which is Jesus, but you make us to understand that <i>begotten and uncreated </i> are one and the same thing which is totally WORNG...


God ALmighty created all of us with the command “BE” and we were, He does not need to beget any children.


So don’t play games huh… :D Begotten does not mean uncreated. Ok.

Huh? I don't get it :lol:


Listen Wael, no disrespect to the holy Qur'an but Christians don't believe that God begot anyone or anything. We declare that the Father begot the Son (we're dealing with Persons). The word "beget" is understood by us as it's understood in the above Ayat. The Son of God is uncreated. The Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit are co-equal & co-eternal. God cannot make another God because God has no beginning.


I thought you & I decided to drop the subject. Why do you keep bringing it up? You refuse to grasp the concept & I refuse to budge, so let's just call it quits. It's for the best, habib!

I still insist on using any Bible as long as there is no proof at all on the authenticity of any version, if you declare right now in plain English that all versions of the Bible are not the word of God except the RCV, then I will use no other version but the RCV at least when discussing with you, but you cant even admit that.

After receiving a good piece of advice from a Protestant board member, I'll no longer be differentiating between Catholics & Protestants as we're all Christians (you have permission to swing your arm :punch: if I break this promise).


RCV??? I think you mean RSV :D That's the Bible I study/read, therefore, I'll continue quoting & interpreting from it. You're free to use any Bible you choose, Mate, but please don't preach it to me based on your private interpretation :lol:


It's not so much about which Bible is the word of God... it has more to do with the canonised books & the approved Bibles of the Catholic Church.

Even if you ask the Shi'a to qutoe you any verse from the Qur'an, they will use one and only Qur'an, we do not have <b>"Qur'anic King James Version"</b>...

Haha! Well I did say "tradition" not "Quran" but since you mentioned it... is there any truth to the rumour I heard recently about 2 main versions of the Qur'an floating around the world... Sunni - Uthmanic recension & Shiite - Ibn Masud codex ??? Just wondering!


You stay cool too :)


God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

I thought you & I decided to drop the subject. Why do you keep bringing it up? You refuse to grasp the concept & I refuse to budge, so let's just call it quits. It's for the best, habib!

I thought that the word 'begotten' has nothing to do with Trinity!!!!!!!!!!!

After receiving a good piece of advice from a Protestant board member, I'll no longer be differentiating between Catholics & Protestants as we're all Christians (you have permission to swing your arm :punch: if I break this promise).

What advise? care to explain?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="4155" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>RCV??? I think you mean RSV :D That's the Bible I study/read, therefore, I'll continue quoting & interpreting from it. You're free to use any Bible you choose, Mate, but please don't preach it to me based on your private interpretation :lol:

</div></blockquote>

No I meant the RCV which is the Roman Catholic Version of the Bible, because the RSV (The revised Standard Version) is missing 7 whole books which the Catholic Church insist that they are belongs to the word of God and the protestant object that.

Haha! Well I did say "tradition" not "Quran" but since you mentioned it... is there any truth to the rumour I heard recently about 2 main versions of the Qur'an floating around the world... Sunni - Uthmanic recension & Shiite - Ibn Masud codex ??? Just wondering!

Floating? show me the difference.


Salam


Wael

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


Peace be with you, Wael!

I thought that the word 'begotten' has nothing to do with Trinity!!!!!!!!!!!

:banghead: For crying out loud!

What advise? care to explain?

You're on a need-to-know basis, my friend ;)

No I meant the RCV which is the Roman Catholic Version of the Bible, because the RSV (The revised Standard Version) is missing 7 whole books which the Catholic Church insist that they are belongs to the word of God and the protestant object that.

There's a Catholic & non-Catholic edition of the RSV containing & excluding the deuterocanonical books respectively.

Floating? show me the difference.

Hmmm... it'll require a fair bit of reading on your part, which you're not a huge fan of :D


http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/quran.htm#G5


I must admit I haven't gone through the whole document yet & I've got no idea how credible the author is. He quotes Arthur Jeffereys quite a bit (has AJ been issued with a fatwa???) so it may not be your cup of tea. If you do get a chance to read it, please let me know what you think. Cheers :)


Take care & God bless.