Passion of Christ

[Dan]

Bismillah


Did you need her to validate your views?


You do know that she believes in the Creator too, that there are laws sent by God that man must adhere to. You know, things you claim that are not true and do not happen.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah

No, god did not send such laws. If you feel that there is such a god and he sent down laws for you, then you knock yourself out and live by those laws but do not try to impose those laws on others that do not share your views.

Peace


John, try to have in mind that YOU think there are no divivne Laws. I mean for ME that is not hard to understand at all. Just to take one step at the side or backwards, whatever you prefer :D to realise that you have that belief.


But for you to take that step forward, just to admit that I for example for being a Muslimah DO believe in divine Laws - well that is hard to come to. Then reason has flown away - whereto, can't imagine...


I think a country has the right to take the decision concerning what is best for the country and it's citizens. This should of course include Islamic countries.


Or ar you talking about something else?

[Dan]

Bismillah


"No, god did not send such laws."


Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree on this one... that is not new. What strikes me as odd, though, is why does France and the like get to impose their views on their muslim population but when the shoe is on the other foot there is this double standard.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"And there are far more people who are in my camp than yours and our numbers are growing."


Now if a muslim said this what would you say?... Prove it?


France is outlawing covering in government buildings. That is imposing their secular views on the muslim population.


It seems if someone agrees with you, then you comprehend with the quickness. Disagree and you play ignorant. I know you're smarter than that.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah

<i>Finally, according to Norris and Inglehart (2004:90), <b>the percentage of people believing in God over the past 50 years</b> has declined by 33% in Sweden, 22% in the Netherlands, 20% in Australia, 19% in Norway, 18% in Denmark, 16.5% in Britain, 12% in Greece, 11% in Belgium, 7% in Canada, and 3% in Japan.</i>


http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zu...an/atheism.html


This is a very necessary requirement for the separation of church and state. The government cannot be seen to favour one religion over the other. You neglected to mention that the law applies to all religions.

I am not surprised to find Sweden on the top of the list. <_< It may be one of the most secular states today. Religion still can be practiced but the religion today that is targeted is Islam, since for example Judaism has not that many believers and Christianity which most people adhere too, do not 'interfere' in the social life. It has been pushed back and has nothing to say.


Therefore Islam/Muslims are different. Due to that Muslims are visable in society and many stand up for their beliefs and values.


And this is not compatible with a secular state.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


Peace be with you, hmm Zachariah!


Thanks so much for answering my questions :) I hope you don't mind if we take it a step further.

What does 'image' with another wording then mean?

You see, you can't give what you don't have.


"Image" in the sense that we have "being" in the same way as God has "being" (will, intellect, love & communion [Holy Trinity], etc). God's perfect & He creates perfection according to one's nature (angels, humans). "Likeness" in the sense of qualities (truth, goodness, beauty, etc). Through Original Sin we lose our likeness to God, however, by Christ's redemption, it's restored. We also possess a number of God's attributes (justice, compassion, forgiveness, wisdom etc) but not to God's infinite degree.

Do you believe that Jesus pbuh is begotten?

We profess that the Son is begotten of the Father. We don't believe that God begets another god.

To me it is not farfetced to compare slave and servant. It is one that adhere the call of the Creator and follow, meaning does His will. Just as can be read in NT


Mat 10:24 ''The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. ''

Jesus taught humanity the greatest lessons - Love God with all your heart, mind & strength; & love your neighbour as yourself (because they too are made in the image & likeness of God).


You can't serve God if you don't love Him. You can't love God if you don't know Him, therefore, our purpose is to know, love & serve God. We don't simply become His slaves because that's what He commands us to do. It's way deeper than that for Christians. (which is why I'm still battling between predestination vs freewill in Islam)


Thank you for quoting the biblical verse (my heart opens up each time someone does so). Our greatest glory will consist in imitating the Master who took on the role of a servant & endured persecution for the sake of humanity's entrance into the Kingdom of God.


The Bible truly is a love letter... from God to us. Alhamdilulah!

Also animals follow their given laws, the will of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. They get hungry, they hunt and eat. BUT in difference to humans they just DO it, they do not reflect or ponder on WHY they do it.

What has Allah (SWT) given us that He hasn't given them? They're vegetative & sensitive creatures too. Are there animals in Paradise too?

Yes, since both Adam pbuh and his wife made something they should not have done. Adam pbuh did not blame his wife, as he does in Genesis? instead they both admit their mistake, they both repent and they both ask Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala for forgiveness. And it is given to them. Both.


What special privileges are you referring to?

That's my whole point! If Allah (SWT) forgave them, why did they remain on earth? They were sent here as a punishment but as soon as their sin/guilt was washed away, logic tells us they should've returned to their original state.


Why aren't we tested in Paradise since we're without sin???

Why not? We are tested wherever we are, aren't we? According to Islamic teachings it was Iblis/Shaytan that was present and he never left us since then. He is always around. Wherever we are. If Shaytan is not created, what is he?


We do have only One Creator - yes?

Is one of the 99 names of Allah (SWT) "evil one"? If not, then evil can't be in Allah's (SWT) presence.


Before you ask, Satan's a fallen angel in Christianity - he was created good... because God can't create anything contrary to his nature.


It's ludicrous & heretical for Christians to believe that we get tested in Heaven - evil doesn't belong in Heaven.

He Subhanahu wa Ta'ala <b>knows</b> as you say, since He is the the All-Knowing. He knows what choices we are going to do before we do them. But He has left the job to be done by us. Even when you cross a road you have to take your responsibility and look if it is ok to pass over the road. You cannot just walk without looking first only because 'it is already known'. The choice you make are yours, even if they are known to our Creator.

That's ideal! However, if you fail to look & consequently get run over by a car is it due to Allah's (SWT) will? Was it written?


From my understanding, the Qur'an & Hadith doesn't quite agree with your above statement & so far on this forum... Wael, Muslimah & Dan have expressed different viewpoints regarding this issue... which is why I'm so lost!


Please refer to the ayats & sayings in post 47: http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4116&st=40 & feel free to share your opinion :)

Keep up the good work! :) InshaAllah.


Hope I can clarify some issues inshaAllah.

Thank you x 2.


Glory to God, peace on earth & good will to all.


Take care, umm!

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of Allah - the Merciful, the Compassionate!


Hello JD :wavey:

You see FHC, how compassionate Allah is ?

I believe Allah (SWT) is Compassionate. I believe Muslims show compassion.


I can't comment on "Islam" or the "Qur'an" without breaking the forum rules, therefore, I'll leave it at that.


Please pray for peace, JD (or be an instrument of it) ;)


God bless.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Faith Hope Charity


Peace

Thanks so much for answering my questions I hope you don't mind if we take it a step further.

You're welcome. No problem.

Through Original Sin we lose our likeness to God, however, by Christ's redemption, it's restored.

Can I read about this lost likeness in the Bible?

We profess that the Son is begotten of the Father. We don't believe that God begets another god.

I understand this. But what does then begotten mean?


There are Christians that believe that Jesus pbuh is God incarnated. And to me as a Muslimah, trying not to see this scenario as 'not another God' fails every time. So praying to Jesus pbuh/God seems to me, like praying to two Gods. One invisable and one visable.

Jesus taught humanity the greatest lessons - Love God with all your heart, mind & strength; & love your neighbour as yourself ...

Good lessons to partake of.


''Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." The Qur'an 3:31


''Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious'' The Qur'an 4:36


Basic guidelines that will give us success in this life and in the coming one inshaAllah.

You can't serve God if you don't love Him. You can't love God if you don't know Him, therefore, our purpose is to know, love & serve God. We don't simply become His slaves because that's what He commands us to do. It's way deeper than that for Christians. (which is why I'm still battling between predestination vs freewill in Islam)

Very true. Truly you cannot be a slave, you cannot submit to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala if you have not understood Who He is. That is not possible. It is a cooperation between the mind and soul and heart to come to that point. Then you are a true believer inshaAllah.


"Battles" will always arise on our travel, whoever we are. We learn from them inshaAllah.

What has Allah (SWT) given us that He hasn't given them? They're vegetative & sensitive creatures too. Are there animals in Paradise too?

I would say reason.


Of course animals are to be valued and cherised too.


Reminds me of a hadith that speaks of a woman that has had a cat and treated it very badly and she is therefore sent to Hell. Sorry haven't checked the correct reference here. And that speaks volumes, don't you agree?

That's my whole point! If Allah (SWT) forgave them, why did they remain on earth? They were sent here as a punishment but as soon as their sin/guilt was washed away, logic tells us they should've returned to their original state.

That is your conlusion. How do you know, since He is the Omnipotent and All-Knowing that He did not plan this? The lesson learnt in the Garden is a lesson as I see it. Listen, learn and follow. If you fail, you can repent and ask for forgivness. But you must always stay on the right path.

Why aren't we tested in Paradise since we're without sin???
Is one of the 99 names of Allah (SWT) "evil one"? If not, then evil can't be in Allah's (SWT) presence.

Why should we be tested in Paradise? What is the purpose?


True, but He is the creator, isn't He? He can create whatever He likes. He will not ask for our permission before doing so.

Before you ask, Satan's a fallen angel in Christianity - he was created good... because God can't create anything contrary to his nature.

Yes I am aware of this part. In Islam he is a Jinn.


If you want to read more about this issue, I suggest,


http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html

However, if you fail to look & consequently get run over by a car is it due to Allah's (SWT) will? Was it written?

Since death is given to us by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala I would say yes.

From my understanding, the Qur'an & Hadith doesn't quite agree with your above statement & so far on this forum... Wael, Muslimah & Dan have expressed different viewpoints regarding this issue... which is why I'm so lost!

Let's see how we progress. Not seldom we have the same thoughts and approach but may express it differently.


Thanks, take care you too.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"Finally, according to Norris and Inglehart (2004:90), the percentage of people believing in God over the past 50 years has declined by 33% in Sweden, 22% in the Netherlands, 20% in Australia, 19% in Norway, 18% in Denmark, 16.5% in Britain, 12% in Greece, 11% in Belgium, 7% in Canada, and 3% in Japan."


Whew! It is so good to know that these are the only countries in the world now. If I ever have to take a geography test again, it will be soooo much easier.


That aside... If I made a claim that religion is on the rise and then gave stats from the middle east and north africa, would you consider that a representative sample. All you showed was secular nations being secular. SHOCKER!


"Wael, Muslimah & Dan have expressed different viewpoints regarding this issue"


No different viewpoints, just trying to explain the One who is Comparable to None, the Unique. We are linear beings bound by space and time. You are questioning how the Creator of All can Know everything yet we still have freewill, correct?


We can only use unworthy analogies to help us understand, so let me try. Draw a line on a piece of paper. Now if someone were to shrink down to smaller than an ant and travel that line, he would not know where it was leading. Being above that line you can see exactly where that person is going, but you are not making that person do anything.


Of course, there are many holes in that comparison because Allah is Uncomparable. That might be hard for a christian to understand since according to you God sweat, felt pain, deficated, fatigued, ate, etc...

[Dan]

Bismillah


The problem with you, bloke, is you think you know me. I have never forced anyone to believe anything. You want to disbelieve... fine... just do it away from me. Your attitude towards secularism is EXACTLY the same but you can't see the forest for the trees.


What proof do have that these nations will become secular?... about as much proof that I have that the nations you stated will be religious.


Beauty mate!