WHY MOTHER TERESA SHOULD NOT BE A SAINT

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


Assalam Alaykum Dan!


What a relief... I finally got to the bottom of this investigation (you can call me MacGyver) ;)


The process for canonization can begin only five years after a person leaves this world. This Church Law was introduced by the Vatican in 1983, before then, the time frame was longer. The magesterium has the power to override this rule under special circumstances because it's (known as) ecclesial tradition not Apostolic.


JP2 waived the five-year waiting period and allowed the beatification process of Mother Teresa to begin two years after her death. Pope Benedict followed suit by opening the cause for his predecessor just three months after he passed away.


Setting aside the normal duration does not do away with mandatory requirements including lengthy examinations and approval of miracles. The procedure remains exactly the same.


If you ask me, they were both living saints anyways! (that's my fallible opinion) :D


As a former Catholic, you're probably familiar with all this lingo but for the non-Catholics reading, I apologize for the jargon.


One more thing - don't believe everything you hear in the secular world. If there's one thing the media hates more than Islam it's the Catholic Church :(


God bless.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


May be you will be surprised FHC, but I read the above explanation u posted, and already knew why her situation was incorrect in this regard, but prefered u do the work, dig and find it yourself.


And if I quote an ayah, when the Ayah applies on the situation, just ponder on the Ayah and how Allah Sobhanhuh wa Ta``ala Didnt ignore or leave behind an atom of info that my occur in this world.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Assalamu alaikum


Sister Muslimah

And if I quote an ayah, when the Ayah applies on the situation, just ponder on the Ayah and how Allah Sobhanhuh wa Ta``ala Didnt ignore or leave behind an atom of info that my occur in this world.

Ameen.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen!


Beatified Mother Teresa... please pray for us.


Salam Muslimah!

May be you will be surprised FHC, but I read the above explanation u posted, and already knew why her situation was incorrect in this regard, but prefered u do the work, dig and find it yourself.

There's nothing incorrect about her situation. My last explanation had absolutely nothing to do with your original posts.

And if I quote an ayah, when the Ayah applies on the situation, just ponder on the Ayah and how Allah Sobhanhuh wa Ta``ala Didnt ignore or leave behind an atom of info that my occur in this world.

The Ayat's great! But it doesn't relate to Mother Teresa.


God bless.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"The process for canonization can begin only five years after a person leaves this world. This Church Law was introduced by the Vatican in 1983, before then, the time frame was longer. The magesterium has the power to override this rule under special circumstances because it's (known as) ecclesial tradition not Apostolic.


JP2 waived the five-year waiting period and allowed the beatification process of Mother Teresa to begin two years after her death. Pope Benedict followed suit by opening the cause for his predecessor just three months after he passed away.


Setting aside the normal duration does not do away with mandatory requirements including lengthy examinations and approval of miracles. The procedure remains exactly the same."


How can men change the religion of God? If Catholocism is perfect, then why the need for updates? Why did it suddenly become okay after centurires of Latin masses to put them in the vernacular? Why was the priest turned around? I am sure that the men have explanations but none of that comes from Jesus. He didn't even speak Latin in the first place.


Here is one (just one) of the splits that I had with the church. It has always seemed that when it better suited the church to change to keep people or attract more followers they would alter the beliefs. Look at how Catholics in Central and South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa worship. El Dia del Muete looks like permissible idolotry. Yet Europeans do not perform such acts whereas portions of the hispanic population would feel a religious rite has been neglected if they did not celebrate this holiday.


Some priests take vows of poverty some don't, some brothers and sisters take vows of silence, others don't. Where did all this stuff come from? Jesus did not teach this and if it was supposed to be an important part of the faith why would Jesus not come right out and teach these rites so no confusion results. Then there's tithes... no longer allowed. Why not? They were.


You can answer that other stuff if you would like but my point is that standards were set for a person to become a saint... except when the church does not want to follow them? Does this not seem politically motivated? Let's get her cannonized while the hype is up... before she fades in people's memories? Then a new modern-day saint can be celebrated?

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


Assalamu alykum!

How can men change the religion of God?

They can't!

If Catholocism is perfect, then why the need for updates?

The Catholic Church is perfect because her Founder is Perfect. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ/Bride of Christ. They're inseparable.


Members within the Church aren't perfect.


There are no updates to doctrines regarding faith & morals (e.g. Most Holy Trinity, Immaculate Conception, Sacraments, divorce, contraception, woman ordination, etc). They've remained the same since day one & will until the end of time.

Why did it suddenly become okay after centurires of Latin masses to put them in the vernacular? Why was the priest turned around? I am sure that the men have explanations but none of that comes from Jesus. He didn't even speak Latin in the first place.

Sacred Tradition (which includes dogmas & infallible doctrines on faith & morals) need to be distinguished from the various theological, liturgical, or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adopted to different places & times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's magisterium.

Here is one (just one) of the splits that I had with the church. It has always seemed that when it better suited the church to change to keep people or attract more followers they would alter the beliefs.

Fair enough, Dan! You're entitled to your own opinions & there are many who would agree with you, I'm sure, but please name one BELIEF that has been altered over the years. Keep in mind that it was never a BELIEF that Mass should be celebrated in Latin. It was never a BELIEF that the priest should face the altar not the congregation. It was never a BELIEF (or a command from Our Lord Jesus Christ) that we speak Aramaic. Catholic BELIEFS have never changed, only practices which express true & permanent Catholic BELIEFS. The Church prefers quality not quantity - no compromises!!! King Henry VIII broke away from Rome taking with him millions of believers all because the Church wouldn't satisfy his sinful desires, feminists have abandoned the Catholic faith, as have practising homosexuals, secular minded people, etc. She allows apostasy for those whose hearts aren't for Christ & there's certainly no compulsion in Catholicism. You know that, dude!


As an aside... Martin Luther had a right to oppose the abuses occuring within the Church at the hands of sinful members - St Francis of Assisi did the same a few centuries beforehand. But the difference between the two is that Luther walked out & rebelled, whereas St Francis remained faithful to Christ's Church & reformed it. If I ever saw something take place in my parish that I didn't approve of, I'd condemn it but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Look at how Catholics in Central and South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa worship. El Dia del Muete looks like permissible idolotry. Yet Europeans do not perform such acts whereas portions of the hispanic population would feel a religious rite has been neglected if they did not celebrate this holiday.

I've never attended El Dia del Muetre (day of prayer for the dead) in other countries to know what goes on there but theoretically it's not permissible idolotry. NO WAY!!! As you're aware, Catholics do pray for the souls in purgatory & this isn't contrary to the Bible.


Catholics all over the world celebrate Mass using the same essentail parts of the liturgy (non-negotiable), however, to some degree, communities may incorporate their cultural influences into the celebration. I attend Mass in many rites - it's great!

Some priests take vows of poverty some don't, some brothers and sisters take vows of silence, others don't. Where did all this stuff come from? Jesus did not teach this and if it was supposed to be an important part of the faith why would Jesus not come right out and teach these rites so no confusion results. Then there's tithes... no longer allowed. Why not? They were.

Tithing is an O/T practice. Are you familiar with the widow's mite in the N/T??? Jesus doesn't want 10% of our wages - He's after 100% of our hearts.


Vows vary according to the order one joins - all focus on the same goal... developing a closer & more intimate relationship with God, through the Son, Jesus Christ. Religious life points to the state of existence awaiting humanity after our pilgrimage on earth. I'm actually discerning a religious vocation myself :wub: Consecration to Our Lord Jesus Christ & mortification are biblical - St Matthew 19:10-12, St Luke 18:29, 1 Corinthians 7 (the whole chapter), 1 Timothy 5:9-12, Revelation 14:3-5, St Matthew 6 (the whole chapter deals with mortification/self discipline)... just to name a few.

You can answer that other stuff if you would like but my point is that standards were set for a person to become a saint... except when the church does not want to follow them? Does this not seem politically motivated? Let's get her cannonized while the hype is up... before she fades in people's memories? Then a new modern-day saint can be celebrated?

Honestly, it breaks my heart that you guys feel this way. It's really not like that at all. The Church is very careful in her canonization procedure. The 5 year duration is to ensure that enough material has been gathered to begin the investigation. In the case of JP2 & Mother Teresa, there was overwhelming evidence & allerged miracles from day one. The Pope has grounds to waive the waiting period under special circumstances. It has nothing to do with politics or hype or memories. In fact it took over 5 years before Mother Teresa was eventually beatified. Saints aren'tt celebrities. The Pope doesn't do press releases or presss conferences. You're confusing the Church for Hollywood, man!


It's all good :)


Peace & blessings.

[Dan]

Bismillah


So any mass celebrated in another language before VII would have been valid in the church? It would have been fine for women to come to mass without a head covering?


"The Pope has grounds to waive"


How? You stated that man cannot change the church laws. This is a change.


"Tithing is an O/T practice."


No... it was a medival practice... one of the issues Martin Luther raised. Now it is no longer allowed. What changed?

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth & good will to all.


Assalamu alykum, Dan!

So any mass celebrated in another language before VII would have been valid in the church? It would have been fine for women to come to mass without a head covering?

Yes x 2.


The Catholic Rite I belong to (Maronite) celebrated Mass in the vernacular (Syriac, Aramaic, Arabic) pre-Vatican II. It was always recognized as valid.


Head dress - As far as I'm aware, the Church hasn't changed a thing in regards to this discipline (it's not a dogma). Although it's not specifically mentioned in the Code of Canon Law (1983), the Church strongly recommends that women cover their heads in Church but it's not a sin if they don't. Attire depends on the custom/culture of the time. Whether women cover up or not doesn't change core beliefs. St Paul is 1 Corinthians 11:13 says to judge for ourselves whether it's appropriate or not.


I should point out that veiling in Christianity has a different significance to "hijab" in Islam - especially for our consecrated religious nuns.

"The Pope has grounds to waive"


How? You stated that man cannot change the church laws. This is a change.

Did I?


I recall stating that men can't change the "Religion of God" (Divine Law).


There's a difference between ecclesiastical tradition (more examples include: Communion in the hand, altar servers, extraordinary ministers, fasting obligations, etc) & Sacred Tradition (the revealed teachings of Christ handed on in the Church from the time of the Apostles & proclaimed to the fullest extent by the Church's authority). The former can be modified, the latter are set in stone until the end.

"Tithing is an O/T practice."


No... it was a medival practice... one of the issues Martin Luther raised. Now it is no longer allowed. What changed?

Martin Luther (RIP) raised this issue??? As far as I know, tithing is still practiced amongst Lutherans & other Protestants. Catholics are encouraged to donate, however, they're not obliged to give 10% of their earnings. Having said that, Church parishes belong to the local Catholic communities, therefore, they're contributing for their own benefit. Donations don't get stashed away in the Holy Father's bank account. I'm aware that a handful of clergy are dodgy (they desperately need our prayers) but at the end of the day, all that matters is parishioners donating in good faith. Our Father in Heaven is watching.


Dude, I don't expect you to defend Catholicism... as much as I love Muslims I'd never defend Islam, but I find it odd that a former Catholic is presenting me with such questions. Were you ever catechised? Your judgements are purely subjective (aspects you disapprove of). I'm starting to think you had a bad experience with the Church & are now holding a grudge.


It's all good :)


Take care & God bless.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"Your judgements are purely subjective (aspects you disapprove of). I'm starting to think you had a bad experience with the Church & are now holding a grudge."


If that can be said of me, then the same can be said of you.


"There's a difference between ecclesiastical tradition (more examples include: Communion in the hand, altar servers, extraordinary ministers, fasting obligations, etc) & Sacred Tradition (the revealed teachings of Christ handed on in the Church from the time of the Apostles & proclaimed to the fullest extent by the Church's authority). The former can be modified, the latter are set in stone until the end."


That's the thing... these changes all are involved in worship. If the church sees no problem in altering worship, that is it's prerogative. In Islam, the only one who can change acts of wroship is Allah. You will not see some muslims coming together and deciding that since Hajj is so big that going around the Kaba' seven times is too much so now only three times is okay.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God in the highest, peace on earth & good will to all.

"Your judgements are purely subjective (aspects you disapprove of). I'm starting to think you had a bad experience with the Church & are now holding a grudge."


If that can be said of me, then the same can be said of you.

In regards to Islam? Most definitely! But when it comes to objectivity, at least I have the Natural Moral Law to back me up. With all due respect, you on the other hand have circular reasoning (we have to follow the Qur'an because it's Allah's revelation; we know the Qur'an is Allah's revelation because Allah has revealed it to us in the Qur'an). Sorry, I know I'm being harsh but I don't know how else to put it.


At the end of the day, Catholic doctrines aren't hurting anybody, so please just let it be.

"There's a difference between ecclesiastical tradition (more examples include: Communion in the hand, altar servers, extraordinary ministers, fasting obligations, etc) & Sacred Tradition (the revealed teachings of Christ handed on in the Church from the time of the Apostles & proclaimed to the fullest extent by the Church's authority). The former can be modified, the latter are set in stone until the end."


That's the thing... these changes all are involved in worship. If the church sees no problem in altering worship, that is it's prerogative. In Islam, the only one who can change acts of wroship is Allah. You will not see some muslims coming together and deciding that since Hajj is so big that going around the Kaba' seven times is too much so now only three times is okay.

Hmmm... I don't know about that...


Communion in the hand - Catholics are still receiving the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Christ.


Altar servers - the priest is still exercising his ministry & the servers are still participating in Mass.


Extraordinary ministers - the bread & wine are still being consecrated & Communion is still being distributed to the faithful.


Fasting obligations - never prevents believers to express interior penance should they freely chose to.


The essential part of worship remains the same before & after changes are made to liturgical/devotional/local practices.


The Church has no desire whatsoever to compete with Islam. According to the Qur'an Christians are commanded to obey the revelations handed down to them. If that's the case, I pray Allah's (SWT) will be done.


Assalam alykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.