Passion of Christ

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Faith Hope Charity

I profess that there's no God but Allah... (I'm halfway there ;)).

InshaAllah.


So you mean that Jesus pbuh/God had <b>to send</b> the Counselor when he/it must already have been? Otherwise God must have been incomplete at that stage? Was God so to speak 'born again' after Jesus' pbuh departure? From being one unity short to then becoming a tri-unity?

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Creator Redeemer Sanctifier.


May the peace of Christ be with you!

So you mean that Jesus pbuh/God had <b>to send</b> the Counselor when he/it must already have been? Otherwise God must have been incomplete at that stage? Was God so to speak 'born again' after Jesus' pbuh departure? From being one unity short to then becoming a tri-unity?

The Holy Spirit (Counselor) proceeds from the Father & the Son. With the Father & the Son He is worshipped & glorified. Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit kinda like how the Father sent His Son. The Holy Spirit was manifested, given & communicated as a Divine Person to the Church at Pentecost (after Christ's Ascension).


Please refer to my thread on the Most Holy Trinity & Incarnation in this section (Discussion of Beliefs) :)

Can't He love you without piercing an innocent? Just curious.

There's no limit to God's love.


A Muslim (or a Jew) on another forum asked me the same question just recently. Here's the reply I gave...


The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of men may become sons of God.


Jesus Christ paid a debt He didn't owe because humanity owed a debt it couldn't pay.


I know the Cross is repugnant to Jews & Muslims but for Christians it's the ultimate act of charity - God's INFINITE love towards us.


God's greatest work is not creation... but redemption!


Jesus, My Joy, I Love You :wub:


May the love of God the Father, the grace of His only-begotten Son & the indwelling of the Holy Spirit be with you all!

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Peace


Faith Hope Charity


Yes I have noticed your thread about the trinity.

A Muslim (or a Jew) on another forum asked me the same question just recently. Here's the reply I gave...
The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of men may become sons of God.


Jesus Christ paid a debt He didn't owe because humanity owed a debt it couldn't pay.


I know the Cross is repugnant to Jews & Muslims but for Christians it's the ultimate act of charity - God's INFINITE love towards us.


God's greatest work is not creation... but redemption!

Is it important to be a son of God? If yes - why?


Does not God accept us if we are not sons of God?


I think it is unfair that humanity owes a debt they did not get or commited themselves.


The cross is to me torture on an innocent person. Only because God Himself cannot forgive? Strange truly. Sorry that is not love to me.


It is anyway not for God to have shortcomings, since He is Perfect and not being able to forgive Himself is one shortcoming. As I see it.


Well if we have not creation we cannot have anything else either as I see it. So creation seems to be in focus. Without that - nothing.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah

My goodness, Umm has caught he same condition as Wel. That of grasping at any straw, including christianity to validate their own beliefs.

Hi there John. You don't say you are still around? No change in sight for your inputs...? Hmmmm....? :D


Oh yes, I caught the condition of being a Muslimah - alhamdulillah. Do you want to join me - becoming a Muslim I mean? :) Ready for Shahadah? :rolleyes:


No, no straws for me. I have 'discovered' Youtube on the other hand. Some interesting issues there.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


May the peace of Christ be with you!

Yes I have noticed your thread about the trinity.

No rave reviews yet - hehe! Not expected though!

Is it important to be a son of God? If yes - why?


Does not God accept us if we are not sons of God?

Through Jesus Christ, the only-begotten <b>Son</b> of God, we've all become adopted sons & daughters of the <b>Father</b>. The love that joins us is the <b>Spirit</b>. We participate in the life of the Most Holy <b>Trinity</b>.


Is that blasphemes to Muslims? I know Muslims don't consider themselves children of Allah but rather slaves.

I think it is unfair that humanity owes a debt they did not get or commited themselves.

I don't understand how Muslims can reject the notion of Original Sin :conf06: Obviously, we inherited what Adam lost otherwise Adam would've returned to Paradise immediately after Allah forgave him, & we wouldn't be born into this sinful world.


Any thoughts???

The cross is to me torture on an innocent person. Only because God Himself cannot forgive?

My innocent mother & father would endure the same suffering for the sake of my life! Although they love me dearly, God loves me infinitely more!!!


Christ's Passion reconciled mankind to God. It's so much more than forgiveness. It's our redemption! Our salvation! Our justification! Our restoration!


He united His Divinity with our humanity & our mortality with His Life! He assumed what is ours & gave us what is His, for the salvation of our souls & everlasting bliss. Glory to God! The power of His love sets us free :wub:


Jesus Christ fully & freely accepted His death upon the Cross. It's a victory not a humiliation!

It is anyway not for God to have shortcomings, since He is Perfect and not being able to forgive Himself is one shortcoming. As I see it.

Amen! God's perfect - no shortcomings! God doesn't need forgiveness. Sorry, I think I missed your point :confused_smile:

Well if we have not creation we cannot have anything else either as I see it. So creation seems to be in focus. Without that - nothing.

Without redemption, humanity is as good as dead.


After Jesus Christ's Life, Death & Resurrection, we can joyfully proclaim, 'Oh happy fault of Adam!'


Thanks & God bless.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


JohnDoe

What I actually said is that you have caught the same condition as Wel suffers from. Are you saying that Wel is a muslimah or you have become a male ? No, probably not. What you do have in common with Wel is that you will cling to any piece of "evidence" that you perceive to support some view you have. Even if you have to cite something as ridiculous as youtube or perhaps the word allah inscribed in a bagel or something.

John - the funny guy! :D


Nope, no clinging at all. It is funny in a way. Some non Muslims get a bit upset when Muslims are being so 'boring' and just stick to the Qur'an and Sunnah. And then on the other hand when looking at what others have to 'offer' then it suddenly becomes 'clining to evidence'? As I said, you're the funny guy.


No need to get upset, let's stay on the right path, for you that would mean to be polite and think or even rethink before writing. Remember this is an Islamic forum. Can you agree on this? You can do it - can't you?

I respectively decline your invitation. Does that mean I should be executed now ? :D

As you wish - I never close the offer on the other hand....standing open and going strong so to speak.... :)


Oh why would you be executed? What have you done!?


OT. By the way how many states in US do have the death penalty?

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Faith Hope Charity

Through Jesus Christ, the only-begotten <b>Son</b> of God, we've all become adopted sons & daughters of the <b>Father</b>. The love that joins us is the <b>Spirit</b>. We participate in the life of the Most Holy <b>Trinity</b>.
Is that blasphemes to Muslims? I know Muslims don't consider themselves children of Allah but rather slaves.

To be sons and daughters to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala? Of course. Since as a Muslimah I do not believe that we are images of our Creator. Someone that is an image would be that. Like we find similarites in looks and behaviour between parents and children and so on.


No I believe this very strongly,


'' Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;


Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;


And there is none like unto Him. '' The Qur'an 112


Yes I am inshaAllah a slave to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, since I have chosen to submit myself to His will, meaning to follow His will in every possible way that I am able to and in the ways I have come to knowledge about alhamdulillah.

I don't understand how Muslims can reject the notion of Original Sin :conf06: Obviously, we inherited what Adam lost otherwise Adam would've returned to Paradise immediately after Allah forgave him, & we wouldn't be born into this sinful world.

I as a Muslimah I reject original sin since I think logically that it is unfair to inherit others doings. We can inherit each others clothes and so on, but not this.


You mean you have come to the <b>conclusion</b> that all would have returned to Paradise after Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgave Adam pbuh AND Eve for their sin/mistake?


''We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.'' The Qur'an 2:38


So according to my understanding Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala sent us here to continue to test our will to follow His will. To partake of and follow His forwarding Messages. The choice is ours.


The world, well I think we have to put some blame on ourselves here. We are in it and WE act in it.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - creator Redeemer Sanctifier.


Salam umm Zachariah!


Thanks for your post :) Islamic philosophy of creation & evil are very interesting topics!!! Definitely two I'd like to learn more about. I hope you don't mind me asking (tough) questions.


To be sons and daughters to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala? Of course. Since as a Muslimah I do not believe that we are images of our Creator. Someone that is an image would be that. Like we find similarites in looks and behaviour between parents and children and so on.



Oh I see! You're taking "image" to mean physical appearance. Not the case. Besides, being sons & daughters of God has nothing to do with resemblance.


No I believe this very strongly,



'' Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;


Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;


And there is none like unto Him. '' The Qur'an 112


Amen! I strongly believe that too.


Yes I am inshaAllah a slave to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, since I have chosen to submit myself to His will, meaning to follow His will in every possible way that I am able to and in the ways I have come to knowledge about alhamdulillah.



What was Allah doing before He had slaves? What was He Master of? Why aren't brutes (animals) slaves too?


I as a Muslimah I reject original sin since I think logically that it is unfair to inherit others doings. We can inherit each others clothes and so on, but not this.



Adam's sin must've affected the human race in one way or another otherwise we all would've been born in Paradise the same way our first parents were. Does Islam teach that all human beings are equal? Why was Adam granted special privileges?


Also, how is it even possible that temptation occurs in Paradise? How can the presence of evil exist in Heaven?


''We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.'' The Qur'an 2:38



So according to my understanding Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala sent us here to continue to test our will to follow His will. To partake of and follow His forwarding Messages. The choice is ours.


But if Allah's omniscient, He's already aware of who's going to follow His guidance & who isn't. Why test us? He already knows the result. What's the Master getting out of all this?


The world, well I think we have to put some blame on ourselves here. We are in it and WE act in it.



But we're living in Allah's world. Is there a force more powerful than Allah? Does Allah want evil to occur?


Wow! I can't believe I just wrote a whole response without including Christian apologetics :blink: I hope we manage to stay on track.


Thanks in advance for your answers :thumb:


God bless.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Faith Hope Charity


Peace

Thanks for your post :) Islamic philosophy of creation & evil are very interesting topics!!! Definitely two I'd like to learn more about. I hope you don't mind me asking (tough) questions.

I'll do my best to answer in accordance to my knowledge inshaAllah.

Oh I see! You're taking "image" to mean physical appearance. Not the case. Besides, being sons & daughters of God has nothing to do with resemblance.

What does 'image' with another wording then mean?

Amen! I strongly believe that too.

Do you believe that Jesus pbuh is begotten?

What was Allah doing before He had slaves? What was He Master of? Why aren't brutes (animals) slaves too?

To me it is not farfetced to compare slave and servant. It is one that adhere the call of the Creator and follow, meaning does His will. Just as can be read in NT


Mat 10:24 ''The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. ''


Also animals follow their given laws, the will of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. They get hungry, they hunt and eat. BUT in difference to humans they just DO it, they do not reflect or ponder on WHY they do it.

Adam's sin must've affected the human race in one way or another otherwise we all would've been born in Paradise the same way our first parents were. Does Islam teach that all human beings are equal? Why was Adam granted special privileges?

Yes, since both Adam pbuh and his wife made something they should not have done. Adam pbuh did not blame his wife, as he does in Genesis? instead they both admit their mistake, they both repent and they both ask Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala for forgiveness. And it is given to them. Both.


What special privileges are you referring to?

Also, how is it even possible that temptation occurs in Paradise? How can the presence of evil exist in Heaven?

Why not? We are tested wherever we are, aren't we? According to Islamic teachings it was Iblis/Shaytan that was present and he never left us since then. He is always around. Wherever we are. If Shaytan is not created, what is he?


We do have only One Creator - yes?

But if Allah's omniscient, He's already aware of who's going to follow His guidance & who isn't. Why test us? He already knows the result. What's the Master getting out of all this?

He Subhanahu wa Ta'ala <b>knows</b> as you say, since He is the the All-Knowing. He knows what choices we are going to do before we do them. But He has left the job to be done by us. Even when you cross a road you have to take your responsibility and look if it is ok to pass over the road. You cannot just walk without looking first only because 'it is already known'. The choice you make are yours, even if they are known to our Creator.


Would He not have given us a free will on the other hand, it would be totally different of course. But He did chose to give us one. So we can reason and take steps from that. It is our privilege and our responsibility. With free will there comes responsibility. Don't you agree?

But we're living in Allah's world. Is there a force more powerful than Allah? Does Allah want evil to occur?

Yes we are. His creation all of it, we included. He is the Powerful. He gave us the knowledge of good and evil, it is up to us what we do with that knowledge. If we look around it seems we have chosen the bad path....

Wow! I can't believe I just wrote a whole response without including Christian apologetics :blink: I hope we manage to stay on track.

Keep up the good work! :) InshaAllah.

Thanks in advance for your answers :thumb:

Hope I can clarify some issues inshaAllah.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Peace

No, that's not what upsets us non muslims. We get upset when muslims self detonate on public transport or fly commercial air planes into buildings, that sort of thing. Why don't you examine muslim behaviour when they get upset at something ? Say cartoons of mohammad for example.

Then we are at least two that ponder about this. I guess we are a lot more. When it comes to airplanes for example.


Examine Muslim behavour? When it comes to the cartoons, it may have gone a bit overboard.


But you know one problem is that in some countries the freedom of speach is so highly valued that if goes before anything else. Even to violate others is ok. And to some people, including me, it is VERY strange. With this as an first hand priority it means that moral issues, as for example respect for other human beings are of no bigger value.


And that IS very strange to me. Hard to understand. And try to have in mind that I am an European so don't try to make this an 'Arab thing'. It is a human thing as I see it.