A Comparison

[Teh_Curious]

mel your making less and less sense every post, you cherry pick my responses , and those you do answer are so bizarre and shows a total lack of understanding of what it is your trying to critisize.

Perfect understanding… But do you call your mother woman? Is there anyone who has little respect for his mother will ever call her WOEMAN?

since when is it offensive to be called a women? i would say my mother is a women... i cant say ive ever checked but the evidence suggesting she IS a women is some what irrefutable.

When Abu Bakr, the Prophet’s pbuh best friend was suffering with severe pain after he gets bite by a poisonous scorpion, The Prophet pbuh put some saliva on the wound of Abu Bakr causing it to heal immediately. Read the story of the migration from Mecca to Madinah.

wow man, Jesus cured lepers, blindness, deafness and raised the dead how could he possibly compete with sucking out the venom from a scorpion bite which is only lethal in 45% of cases of people being bitten.

Is he Gods message or is he God Himself? Please stay focus…

considering FHC has answerd this question 50 billion times already i doubt answering it one more time will make much difference you obviously lack the ability of rational thought :)

and if women are raped, countries are attacked Jesus said nothing about this… just love the enemy…

if you had ever read the bible you would know how false this statment is, he would intervene but he wouldnt need to use violence.


JESUS DEALS WITH SINNERS (8:3-6)


Jesus helps people where ever and in whatever condition He finds them. He was busy teaching when He was interrupted by a group of thugs who crash in on Him. They came dragging into the room a disheveled, hastily clothed, barefooted and humiliated woman.


A woman was taken in adultery (vv. 3-4)


The scribes and Pharisees brought a woman whom they testified was caught in "the very act" of adultery (v. 4). There is no question about her guilt. John repeats the statement twice in two verses, a woman "caught in adultery." She was "taken with shame upon her." She has lived in continuous adulterous relationships so long that she is now characterized as an adulteress.


Where is the man? If I remember correctly, it takes two! Verse four says she was "caught in adultery, the very act." Should there not have been have been two sinners? Is this a lynching party? Where is the man? Who is trying to get even with the woman? Who set the deliberate trap for her? Her husband, or a former lover? Perhaps the husband set her up to divorce her or have her stoned.


This is a well-rehearsed plot to "test" Jesus with the idea of proving Him false. They were skillfully laying a trap. It was a setup.


The Pharisees demanded, "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" (v. 5). I am sure they were ready to misquote Deuteronomy 22:22ff. They stressed stoning the woman in the recorded quotes of their conversation with Jesus, but the Law demanded that both parties be stoned. It was only under the condition of persistence after previous warning and after the actual witness of the act of adultery by two competent witnesses that a couple was to be stoned.


The Pharisees and scribes continued to press their point. They were not after the poor woman as much as they were after Jesus. They were saying this "testing" Jesus (v. 6). They wanted grounds for "accusing" Jesus. He is the one they are really after.


This self-righteous, self-appointed judge and jury were out to hang Jesus. We are determined we are going to get rid of you, one way or the other, no matter what it takes. They were filled with self–righteous hatred toward Jesus.


They kept stressing their point. "They persisted in asking Him" (v. 7a). They kept the pressure on Jesus. Come on, tell us teacher, what do You say?


As these religious leaders persisted in questioning him, Jesus stood up and invited any one among them who was sinless, not guilty of general sinfulness, to throw the first stone. By this statement they could not possibly say Jesus rejected the law. Jesus specifically enjoined them to throw the first stone. Go ahead, you are right, the Law says stone her. She is guilty. Now, you, which one of you, is sinless? Moreover, if they threw the stone they would have been guilty of breaking the Roman Law against capital punishment! Only the Roman government in Jesus' day could execute a criminal. That is why the Jewish religious leaders manipulated Pilate to execute Jesus! They didn't have the authority to execute Him.


Jesus straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" (v. 7). Then Jesus again "stooped down, and wrote on the ground" (v. 8).


the point to all this is, Jesus never needed to use violence to achieve his ends, you try to debate Muhammad was a man of peace yet you try to justify and validate his violent nature, which as i can see is so entrenched in your faith you are blind and oblivious to it if your own statments are anything to go by.

I intended not to responde to the rest of your nonsensical claims, because I believe if am going to reply, I may hurt other Christians who do not came here to attack Islam or his prophet pbuh…

umm you mean you are unable to? thats one of the wost cop out you lot have come up with to date and ive read some pretty pathetic cop outs to date.


you cant find anyway to respond or refute my claims so you strive to denigrate what i say, just like the Pharises did to Jesus, you try to lay traps with your sly toungues to denigrate the word of Jesus just like the Pharises.


christianity accepts and encorages people to question their faith as it makes them stronger in the long run, and we dont Kill, Maim and Destroy when we hear something we dont like.

[Teh_Curious]

Regardless of what TC thinks (sorry Mate), Jesus Christ is the Son of God & the Perfect Man. Through the Incarnation the 2nd Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity assumed a sinless human nature. Wael, were you lying to me when you said you read my thread in "Discussion of Beliefs" or are you just arguing with TC for the sake of winning instead of acquiring truth?

lol i am somewhat unorthadox in my views :P


but solid in my beliefs

[Ruggedtouch]

Whenever we mention the name of Jesus Christ we immediately add the phrase “peace be upon him” out of respect and reverence for this great man of God, but see how disrespectful person you are to refer to our beloved Prophet pbuh as ‘Mo’!!! Don’t you have enough fingers to type his full name? If you hate him that much, then why did you come here in the first place?

If it’s not too much to ask, Wael, could you please email the ummah and ask that they consider extending a bit of the respect and reverence they have for J.C. to actual flesh and blood humans? The world would be a better place for it.


Killing Christians (and those of myriad other faiths), is probably – and I’m going out on a limb here to suggest this – disrespectful to J.C. But that's just me!

[Teh_Curious]

I don't know too much about the jesus fella but this is one I have heard of before. This story tells a lot about the guy (assuming he did actually exist) and I find this incident a powerful example of what human campassion should be.

LOL FINALLY !!!!


its funny how someone who is a self confessed agnostic, can understand the teachings of Jesus (although he may not believe in God he can see the sense in Jesus words). Yet those who swear on the rivers of Infidel Blood that they know the will of God just dont get it???


John cheers mate, for a while i sometimes felt i was speaking some alien dialect from the centauri galaxy, but you have confirmed to me i have been making at least alittle sense :P

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

since when is it offensive to be called a women? i would say my mother is a women... i cant say ive ever checked but the evidence suggesting she IS a women is some what irrefutable.

You may say that your mother is indeed a woman, but when you address her, you can’t tell her for example, <b>“Woman, get me some water” </b> can you?


Any language in the world has got very respectful terms to address our mothers.


But Jesus (<i>of the Bible</i>) doesn’t have any other term to call his mother with but <b>WOMAN</b>, <b>the same manner in which he addresses a prostitute. </b>

wow man, Jesus cured lepers, blindness, deafness and raised the dead how could he possibly compete with sucking out the venom from a scorpion bite which is only lethal in 45% of cases of people being bitten.

No competition TC… just please remember that Jesus did <b>NOTHONG</b> on his own (this is what he said); but God Almighty used him as an instrument to perform those miracles. Plus there are many other miracles which were performed in the Bible by other than Jesus, <b>in which Jesus will never be able to compete.</b>

considering FHC has answerd this question 50 billion times already i doubt answering it one more time will make much difference you obviously lack the ability of rational thought

Yes she said that jesus is God and he is also his son, he is divine yet human, he is eternal yet he was born of a virgin which is contrary to the word ‘eternal’… I do appreciate FHC efforts in trying to explain her faith, but I still cannot get this whole concept into my head, and I even doubt that you truly understand such thing, you just have to believe in it as it is.

if you had ever read the bible you would know how false this statment is, he would intervene but he wouldnt need to use violence.

Really? Then Let’s see what the <b>‘prince of peace’ </b> has to say:


<b>"I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were ALREADY KINDLED</b>. LUKE 12:49


<b>'Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace BUT DIVISION."</b> LUKE 12:51


<b>Come on interpret the verses the way you wish.. </b>

A woman was taken in adultery (vv. 3-4)
The scribes and Pharisees brought a woman whom they testified was caught in "the very act" of adultery (v. 4). There is no question about her guilt. John repeats the statement twice in two verses, a woman "caught in adultery." She was "taken with shame upon her." She has lived in continuous adulterous relationships so long that she is now characterized as an adulteress.


Where is the man? If I remember correctly, it takes two! Verse four says she was "caught in adultery, the very act." Should there not have been have been two sinners? Is this a lynching party? Where is the man? Who is trying to get even with the woman? Who set the deliberate trap for her? Her husband, or a former lover? Perhaps the husband set her up to divorce her or have her stoned.


This is a well-rehearsed plot to "test" Jesus with the idea of proving Him false. They were skillfully laying a trap. It was a setup.


The Pharisees demanded, "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" (v. 5). I am sure they were ready to misquote Deuteronomy 22:22ff. They stressed stoning the woman in the recorded quotes of their conversation with Jesus, but the Law demanded that both parties be stoned. It was only under the condition of persistence after previous warning and after the actual witness of the act of adultery by two competent witnesses that a couple was to be stoned.


The Pharisees and scribes continued to press their point. They were not after the poor woman as much as they were after Jesus. They were saying this "testing" Jesus (v. 6). They wanted grounds for "accusing" Jesus. He is the one they are really after.


This self-righteous, self-appointed judge and jury were out to hang Jesus. We are determined we are going to get rid of you, one way or the other, no matter what it takes. They were filled with self–righteous hatred toward Jesus.


They kept stressing their point. "They persisted in asking Him" (v. 7a). They kept the pressure on Jesus. Come on, tell us teacher, what do You say?


As these religious leaders persisted in questioning him, Jesus stood up and invited any one among them who was sinless, not guilty of general sinfulness, to throw the first stone. By this statement they could not possibly say Jesus rejected the law. Jesus specifically enjoined them to throw the first stone. Go ahead, you are right, the Law says stone her. She is guilty. Now, you, which one of you, is sinless? Moreover, if they threw the stone they would have been guilty of breaking the Roman Law against capital punishment! Only the Roman government in Jesus' day could execute a criminal. That is why the Jewish religious leaders manipulated Pilate to execute Jesus! They didn't have the authority to execute Him.


Jesus straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" (v. 7). Then Jesus again "stooped down, and wrote on the ground" (v. 8).

I was sure that you are going to mention this story, first of all you must understand that your favorite story of Jesus forgiving the woman who was caught committing adultery <b>does not belong to the original Bible</b>, these are not my words, but the words of a very well known Christian scholar of the New Testaments (<b>Bart Ehramn</b>) who can speak Greek (the original language of the NT) and did his research and found <b>NO reference in the original manuscripts about such story</b>, he have no reason to lie… otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting himself when he ordered his followers to follow each and every <b>jot</b> that was mentioned in the Old Law…


Matthew 5:17


<b>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. </b>


5:18


For verily I say unto you, <b>Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.</b>


Now you may come up with another <i>‘weird’ </i> interpretation as usual, <b>but that will not change the fact that the above story was a later addition and has nothing to do with the original Bible. </b> or else Jesus will be violating God's law.

umm you mean you are unable to? thats one of the wost cop out you lot have come up with to date and ive read some pretty pathetic cop outs to date.

Tell you what, I believe that all what you got is a very big mouth… don’t think that you are going to provoke me huh <_<


Your points were refuted on this board several times, you may check our discussion with <i>curious Christian</i> on <b>‘discussion and beliefs’ </b> forum and you will see that your fales claims were answered thousand of times..


Salam


Wael.

[Teh_Curious]

You may say that your mother is indeed a woman, but when you address her, you can’t tell her for example, <b>“Woman, get me some water” </b> can you?

if i am thirsty i get MYSELF a glass of water, wether i said "women get me a drink" or "mother could you please get me a drink" will lead to the same response "GET IT YOURSELF", besides i dont recall anywhere in the bible that Jesus says "WOMEN get me water !!!!"

Any language in the world has got very respectful terms to address our mothers.

so your now fluent in all languages and cultures? ROFL this argument is absurd and without relevence.

But Jesus (<i>of the Bible</i>) doesn’t have any other term to call his mother with but <b>WOMAN</b>, <b>the same manner in which he addresses a prostitute. </b>

if you want to argue christian theology with me at least read the bible...

No competition TC… just please remember that Jesus did <b>NOTHONG</b> on his own (this is what he said); but God Almighty used him as an instrument to perform those miracles. Plus there are many other miracles which were performed in the Bible by other than Jesus, <b>in which Jesus will never be able to compete.</b>

*sigh* so whats any of this have to do with a comparison on how Jesus and Muhammad lived their lives?


Mel think about what your saying, and please stick to the topic :)

Yes she said that jesus is God and he is also his son, he is divine yet human, he is eternal yet he was born of a virgin which is contrary to the word ‘eternal’… I do appreciate FHC efforts in trying to explain her faith, but I still cannot get this whole concept into my head, and I even doubt that you truly understand such thing, you just have to believe in it as it is.


Really? Then Let’s see what the <b>‘prince of peace’ </b> has to say:

of coarse you can, you just believe your being clever by saying you dont, and i have to take my hat off to FHC's patience with you. its sooo easy any 5 YO can understand and surley you are abit more sophisticated than a 5 yo?

<b>"I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were ALREADY KINDLED</b>. LUKE 12:49

in the future please dont quote the bible unless you understand what its saying, when i quote the Koran i at least read the whole text in its context. go back and read the whole thing mel.

<b>'Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace BUT DIVISION."</b> LUKE 12:51

see above post.

<b>Come on interpret the verses the way you wish.. </b>

i dont need to it appears you already have. and you are wrong in your assumption.

I was sure that you are going to mention this story, first of all you must understand that your favorite story of Jesus forgiving the woman who was caught committing adultery <b>does not belong to the original Bible</b>, these are not my words, but the words of a very well known Christian scholar of the New Testaments (<b>Bart Ehramn</b>) who can speak Greek (the original language of the NT) and did his research and found <b>NO reference in the original manuscripts about such story</b>, he have no reason to lie… otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting himself when he ordered his followers to follow each and every <b>jot</b> that was mentioned in the Old Law…

of coarse you did just like the Pharises you use your sly words of the devil to discredit the words of Jesus, its the reason i chose this particular story.again as ive stated in past posts what does Bart Ehramn have to do with the comparisons between Jesus and Muhammad? at best its a individuals personal opinion, at worst its just his 15 min of fame to sell his books.

Now you may come up with another <i>‘weird’ </i> interpretation as usual, <b>but that will not change the fact that the above story was a later addition and has nothing to do with the original Bible. </b> or else Jesus will be violating God's law.


Tell you what, I believe that all what you got is a very big mouth… don’t think that you are going to provoke me huh <_<

EARTH TO MEL COME IN MEL !!!!!!!!


again what does that have to do with comparison between between Jesus and Muhammad?


instead of trying to use my own religeon against me, why cant you stick to the point of the subject matter?, do i need to refresh your mind or are you able to click the "1" and go back to the first post?

Your points were refuted on this board several times, you may check our discussion with <i>curious Christian</i> on <b>‘discussion and beliefs’ </b> forum and you will see that your fales claims were answered thousand of times..

nothing has been refuted anywhere on here...


you cant argue against Jesus with Muhammad as you have been proving in your last irrational posts, you have tried the OT, NT christian scholars but no muhammed?


surley the prophet of peace and tolerance shouldnt have to fall back on "infidel" doctrine to defend his actions when his words were transcribed from GOD himself.

[Teh_Curious]

Mel some of what you posted i didnt understand, you may wanna go back to that site you get this info from and reread what it is you were trying to say and repost it in a more coherant post.


thats the type of thing that happens i guess when your not using your own mind and just copy pasting from other sites.


lol 1 sentance you sound Jewish, the next Atheist, the next prodestant


it would be interesting to continue this debate somewhere away from the internet ;)

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

if i am thirsty i get MYSELF a glass of water, wether i said "women get me a drink" or "mother could you please get me a drink" will lead to the same response "GET IT YOURSELF", besides i dont recall anywhere in the bible that Jesus says "WOMEN get me water !!!!"

I was giving you an example but you had taken it literally as usual.


Jesus did not tell his MOTHER, ‘women get me a drink’ , but if you still remember your Bible, according to St. John, he was describing the marriage feast at Cana, and we are told there that Jesus, <b>behaved rudely towards his mother</b>. He calls her <b>"Woman, what have I to do with thee</b>?" or in modern language, “What connection is there between you and me”, or what have I got to do with you? And that was his response when she just told him that people have no wine…


<b>Is there no word in his language for "mother"?</b> now compare this behavior with what Islam teaches... if you want to compare.

so your now fluent in all languages and cultures? ROFL this argument is absurd and without relevence.

I am not saying that am an expert in all languages, but for sure I know the respectful term for “mother” in so many languages, for example:


<b>Arabic = Umm, or Ummi, or in modern languages, Mama</b>


Hebrew = Om or Am


Hindi = Ma


Aramaic = Aemah

*sigh* so whats any of this have to do with a comparison on how Jesus and Muhammad lived their lives?

You were talking miracles, and I was just refuting the point that Jesus’ miracles were just normal when you compare them with other Biblical miracles.

Mel think about what your saying, and please stick to the topic

dont ask me to ‘stick to the topic’, I can say anything as long as I feel that it is related to the subject, and if you think that my inputs are not relevant to the topic, <b>then don’t respond at all</b>.

in the future please dont quote the bible unless you understand what its saying, when i quote the Koran i at least read the whole text in its context. go back and read the whole thing mel.

You are not reading the Qur’an TC, you are reading selected verses quoted by faithfreedom group. I am reading the Bible and this is how I understand it, if you have nothing to say, <b>just no need for you to comment at all</b>.

of coarse you did just like the Pharises you use your sly words of the devil to discredit the words of Jesus, its the reason i chose this particular story.again as ive stated in past posts what does Bart Ehramn have to do with the comparisons between Jesus and Muhammad? at best its a individuals personal opinion, at worst its just his 15 min of fame to sell his books.

Again, this story not to be found in the original scriptures, so there is no point for you to mention it at all, the whole scriptures were examined by a person who is a Christian scholar, <b>then all what you are saying carry no weight.</b>


Salam


Wael.

[Teh_Curious]

Bismillah:


I was giving you an example but you had taken it literally as usual.




<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="4042" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Jesus did not tell his MOTHER, ‘women get me a drink’ , but if you still remember your Bible, according to St. John, he was describing the marriage feast at Cana, and we are told there that Jesus, <b>behaved rudely towards his mother</b>. He calls her <b>"Woman, what have I to do with thee</b>?" or in modern language, “What connection is there between you and me”, or what have I got to do with you? And that was his response when she just told him that people have no wine…

and the other references your alleged he said this? this is only one example your implying he refered to his mother this way every time and i KNOW for a fact he didnt :)

I am not saying that am an expert in all languages,

thank you :)

You were talking miracles, and I was just refuting the point that Jesus’ miracles were just normal when you compare them with other Biblical miracles.

im sorry did i visit the wrong site i was of the belief that this was a comparison between Jesus and Muhammad? raising the dead is normal? ... oh man ur halarious...

dont ask me to ‘stick to the topic’, I can say anything as long as I feel that it is related to the subject, and if you think that my inputs are not relevant to the topic, <b>then don’t respond at all</b>.

from hence on unless what you type is relevant to the discussion im just going to ignore it OK :)

You are not reading the Qur’an TC, you are reading selected verses quoted by faithfreedom group. I am reading the Bible and this is how I understand it, if you have nothing to say, <b>just no need for you to comment at all</b>.

actually ive read more of the koran than ive read of the bible, but ive grown up with the bible so most of whats in there has been taught to me anyway :)


i have posted articles from Ali Sina, i have posted articles from many sites, but my arguments and opinions that i am expressing are my own where as you are scanning web sites frantically trying to find 1 scrap of non existant evidence to PROVE that muhammad is a more moral person than Jesus.

Again, this story not to be found in the original scriptures, so there is no point for you to mention it at all, the whole scriptures were examined by a person who is a Christian scholar, <b>then all what you are saying carry no weight.</b>

1 says these things, hundreds of others disagree? its a cat chasing its tail. you are talking about a person whos agenda is to make $$$$$, how do you sell a book start contoversy :)


NEXT?

</div></blockquote>

[Faith Hope Charity]

To the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.


Peace be with you!


Sorry, I tried my best to stay out of this but when it comes to Mother Mary, I have to defend her!!!

Jesus did not tell his MOTHER, ‘women get me a drink’ , but if you still remember your Bible, according to St. John, he was describing the marriage feast at Cana, and we are told there that Jesus, <b>behaved rudely towards his mother</b>. He calls her <b>"Woman, what have I to do with thee</b>?" or in modern language, “What connection is there between you and me”, or what have I got to do with you? And that was his response when she just told him that people have no wine…

Jesus Christ would never tell us to keep the Commandments then violate one Himself.


"Woman" is a term of respect, dignity & honor. There's a parallel between Our Lady & the first "woman" Eve. Mary is the most "blessed among all women".


You can call me "woman" anyday!!!


Also... I can't help myself... one more point...


Wael, I've given up trying to show you the authenticity of Catholic Scriptures. It goes in one ear & out the other. So let me try a different approach. Before printers were invented, there were only a handful of Bibles in the world - especially during Mohammad's time (PBUH). Catholics hold Sacred Tradition on par with Sacred Scripture. Back in the early days, the faith was taught orally through Apostolic succession.


Christians aren't "people of the book". Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is not a written & mute word, but the Word which is Incarnate & living (CCC 108).


Yo TC... thanks for saying I'm patient :) Looks like I have you fooled :lol: By the way, despite what you believe Jesus Christ to be, I'll always respect you.


Alrighty then! You kids carry on now :popc1:


Peace :peace: