A Comparison

[Dan]

Bismillah


Let's see if I can bridge this communication gap...


FHC- I think (correct me, ukhti if I am wrong) that muslimah is asking about the actual rites and rituals that are practiced.


Maybe explain the seven sacraments and how they came about, like why (presedence for sacrament), when (became cannon) , and how (what is done and who set the example for doing these actions specifically).


Just bc I have background in both, I am going to try to pre-empt an answer.


The Eucharist (or Communion) has its origins in the Last Supper (btw muslim account of it is interesting, FHC. Start at verse 111. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html).


What Muslimah might then ask is from where did the specific actions and methods come? Like why is an altar used when Jesus used a table? Why do people kneel or stand at certain times? Who commanded this?


For muslims, each act of worship that we do has been specifically patterned after the Prophet. Muslims then have a difficult time understanding why Christians will do some of the acts of worship they do when Christ never did it himself, like the sign of the cross.


Insha'Allah this helped rather than hindered. I apologize if I have said anything incorrect or offensive.


Peace

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Jazakum Allah khairan Dan for trying to bridge thi gap.


However, let me try to put my point more forward. As FHC, says they follow what Jesus broughtoforth to them. Now being a divine entity, how can he expect humans to follow and copy divine attitude, and if not they are certainly subjected to judgement. On another thread she said that the Pope is infallible, does this imply as well that he is of a divine entity?


Let me re phrase:


A follower is commanded thru the divine source to do and dont in order to be able to attain heavens and not judged as a sinner, to avoid falling into sins.


Who is the role model? taking in consideration that a follower is human. Divine and human are totally two different entities, a human is made by the divine with many faults and mistakes. A divine is the opposite.


It is totally illogical for a divine to command the human to follow the footsteps. For instance, divine entity does not eat, drink, does not feel hungry, does not feel fear, does not have needs. A human certainly has needs that must be fulfilled.


For example Jesus never married, why is it only when one decides to devote to monstery that one never marries? This must have been part of a Christian's life?


Now is it clear what i wanted to discuss??


Being a human being is certainly far from even being million inches close to any type of divine attitude. How can human beings be asked to copy the attitude of a divine entity? Otherwise, this will be only unfair.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam again


Just to ensure a proper ommunication of my idea.


Assuming that Jesus is divine in human incarnation, he still maintained divine capacity thru which he was capable of performing numerous miracles. Certainly, this divine capacity is lending him speciial attitude, that a human is never capable of. How can he teach humans to follow his footsteps, his conduct, his manner, his attitude? how can a human being be asked to immiate or copy a divine entity.


What is more important, he did communicate the teachings that christians must follow. Now, did he communicate it thru his own, or was it communicated based on the father's command?

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God in the highest, peace on earth & goodwill to all.


As salam alykum Wael, Dan & Muslimah.


Insh a Allah I'll be granted the wisdom & humility to provide satisfactory responses.


Mr Wael...

Wrong…


In a "SHOCK SURVEY OF ANGLICAN BISHOPS" in June 1984 it was revealed that 31 of their 39 Bishops thought that


<b>"Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible."</b>


In deference to the Bishops of the Church of England (the "Anglicans") the Church of Scotland also omitted any reference to the "Virgin Birth" from its publication "A STATEMENT OF FAITH."

I think these Anglicans are on the verge of establishing Protestant denomination number 50 001!!!


How someone can call himself a Christian & not believe what's "described in the Bible" is beyond me!


Lord Jesus Mercy.

<b>Why this 'Blesses Trinity' should be that difficult if it was ‘really’ the central doctrine of the Christian faith??? </b>


<b>Why for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity?</b> At the least, <b>would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers?</b> <b>Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith? </b>

It's not difficult for everyone. The Blessed Trinity is concealed in the O/T & made manifest in the N/T. From the moment Jesus Christ revealed this supernatural truth to the world, the Church has not denied it, but instead, relied on Theology to explore & explain the doctrine (not the mystery).


For more info, please check "Discussion of Beliefs".


Mr Dan...

The Eucharist (or Communion) has its origins in the Last Supper (btw muslim account of it is interesting, FHC. Start at verse 111. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html).

I got carried away & read the whole Sura :)


I found a few Ayats rather fascinating. You probably already know what I'm thinking...


005.017



YUSUFALI: In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.


As I've drilled into Wael's head time & time again... Christians don't profess that "God is Jesus". God is: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's inappropriate to call God "Jesus", however, it's perfectly acceptable to say "Jesus is God", because <i>person</i> answers the question, <i>who?</i> & <i>nature</i> answers the question, <i>what?</i> I hope that makes sense! The above translation seems a little dodgy. Is that how it's worded in Arabic? (I can read Arabic but I only own an English version of the Qur'an)


005.047



YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.


005.048


YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;


So basically, these Ayat's are telling Christians to search their Scriptures for God's true message & obey it. If that's the case, then you can't blame a Catholic for being a Catholic! Please let us judge our Bible & live according to it.


005.051



YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


No comment.


005.116



YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.


Dan & I both know very well that Jesus never told His followers to worship His blessed mother as a god. Truth be told, this whole Ayat is just sooooooo weird to me, as I'm sure you can imagine.

What Muslimah might then ask is from where did the specific actions and methods come? Like why is an altar used when Jesus used a table? Why do people kneel or stand at certain times? Who commanded this?

It's all based on Temple worship in the O/T & the Lamb's Supper in the book of Revelations.


"All sacraments and sacramentality derive from and are modelled on Christ, the Incarnate Word. A Sacrament is an outward rite instituted by Christ to signify grace, and to give the grace it signifies."

Muslims then have a difficult time understanding why Christians will do some of the acts of worship they do when Christ never did it himself, like the sign of the cross.

We make the Sign of the Cross (In the NAME of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Spirit. Amen.) because we're offering up our prayers to God. Notice how we say "name" rather than "names", because we're praying to ONE GOD, not three gods. In Arabic, "One God" is actually inserted before "Amen" - this is to avoid confusion between Christians & Muslims in the Middle East... seriously!

Insha'Allah this helped rather than hindered. I apologize if I have said anything incorrect or offensive.

Thanks Dan! No need to apologize. Please feel free to have your say whenever you want (like you need my permission - LOL).


Although you & Muslimah aren't on the same page, I just couldn't ignore your post :)

Peace

Right back at ya!


Dear Muslimah,


I totally understand where you're coming from, darl, but before we continue, you really need to understand the full & proper meaning of the Incarnation as well as some background to Christology. Please visit "Discussion of Beliefs" when you have the chance. I may have answered your questions there but in case my thread ever gets deleted, I'll say something here real quickly...


We're all called to imitate Christ in as much as our (fallen) nature allows us to. Christ was sinless in His humanity! If you think about some of the '99 Names of Allah' (compassionate, forgiving, patient, loving, gracious, generous, just, wise, peaceful, etc), you can see that Allah has created humans with a number of qualities that He possesses infinitely. Christians believe that God made us in His image & likeness. As finite creatures, we're supposed to glorify God in our thoughts, words & actions & allow Him to shine in & through us. Therefore, we can never be the Person Jesus Christ is, but as His followers, it's certainly possible for us to emulate His human behaviour according to our capacity.

For example Jesus never married, why is it only when one decides to devote to monstery that one never marries? This must have been part of a Christian's life?

One of the names given to the Church is, "Bride of Christ". The Bible speaks of a wedding feast in Heaven between Christ & His spotless Bride (the Church in which the body of believers are incorporated into). Each one of us has a vocation, whether it be religious brotherhood/sisterhood, marriage, or the single life. There are no limitations to living out a life in Christ. If you'd like to know more about celibacy of the priesthood (controversial topic), I'm happy to discuss it, however, it needs its own thread - LOL! As for the consecrated religious life (monks, nuns, brothers, etc), they signify & proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come.

On another thread she said that the Pope is infallible, does this imply as well that he is of a divine entity?

Absolutely not! The Pope couldn't be more human! He too visits the confessional frequently (as a penitent). He's only infallible when teaching <i>ex-cathedra</i> strictly on matters of 'faith' & 'morals'. When doing so, he's protected from error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In the history of the Church, only one Pope has exercised papal infallibility & that was Pope Pius XII when defining the dogma of the Assumption back in 1851. No Pope has ever formally taught heresy whilst acting as the Vicar of Christ & binding all members of the Church. (sorry about the jargon)

And FHC, I m not sure what were u apologizing for, I thought this was between u and Wael, but then realised that u were refering to the false info you got regarding the Satanic verses. Well, I wasnt offended, u shouldnt keep in your heart, you learnt a piece of info, how can u verify it? if u kept it to yourself and didnt approach Muslims for it, then u will continue adopting wrong impression about something fundamental.

Thanks Matey! I appreciate it :)

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

How someone can call himself a Christian & not believe what's "described in the Bible" is beyond me!

Yes exactly, then why are you calling your religion as “Christianity” ? Does the Bible <b>describe</b> Jesus' religion as Christianity? Does Jesus himself ever call his faith as Christianity? <b>NO</b>... so you too should not call your religion as Christianity because it was NOT mentioned in the Bible... <b>NOT EVEN ONCE.</b> so don’t blame the Anglican Church, all what they said is that:


Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection <b>MIGHT</b> not have happened <b>EXACTLY</b> as described in the Bible.

It's not difficult for everyone. The Blessed Trinity is concealed in the O/T & made manifest in the N/T. From the moment Jesus Christ revealed this supernatural truth to the world, the Church has not denied it, but instead, relied on Theology to explore & explain the doctrine (not the mystery).

<b>Jesus never taught trinity</b>, unless you bring some verses from your Book of authority to support your claim (i.e that Jesus revealed this supernatural truth to the world etc) then you should not promote such thing.

For more info, please check "Discussion of Beliefs".

Am going to read it and comment if needed insh a Allah. :)

005.017
YUSUFALI: In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.


As I've drilled into Wael's head time & time again... Christians don't profess that "God is Jesus". God is: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's inappropriate to call God "Jesus", however, it's perfectly acceptable to say "Jesus is God", because person answers the question, who? & nature answers the question, what? I hope that makes sense! The above translation seems a little dodgy. Is that how it's worded in Arabic? (I can read Arabic but I only own an English version of the Qur'an)

Most surely you have not come across any Christian who says that <b>God is Jesus</b>!!

005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.


005.048


YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;


So basically, these Ayat's are telling Christians to search their Scriptures for God's true message & obey it. If that's the case, then you can't blame a Catholic for being a Catholic! Please let us judge our Bible & live according to it.

If you believe in the above verses, then you should also know that somewhere else in the Qur’an, God informed us that those <b>ORIGINAL</b> scriptures were corrupted by the hands of men to conceal a lot of its truth. and that’s why I always ask you where are your original scriptures?

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


No comment.

Sure no comments, because you have only red this verse and for some reasons you were not able to continue reading in order for you to understand the meaning of this verse.

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.


Dan & I both know very well that Jesus never told His followers to worship His blessed mother as a god. Truth be told, this whole Ayat is just sooooooo weird to me, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Yes but there are <b>MANY MANY MANY</b> people do worship Mary and Jesus and have totally forgotten about the true Creator!!!, or in you terminology, they’ve forgotten their duty towards the FATHER... and so God wants Jesus pbuh himself to be witness over his followers, so he is asking him this question in order for Jesus to testify loudly and clearly infront of his followers that he did nothing but conveying God’s orders and delivering the same pure message of Abraham and Moses to his people (i.e that we should worship God alone, the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus). and not anyone else.

We make the Sign of the Cross (In the NAME of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Spirit. Amen.) because we're offering up our prayers to God.

<b>Yes but from where did you get such prayer? who teach you this prayer? and why do you make the sign of Cross where in fact it was not pracriced by Jesus and it was NOT mentioned in the Bible? </b>

Notice how we say "name" rather than "names", because we're praying to ONE GOD, not three gods. In Arabic, "One God" is actually inserted before "Amen" - this is to avoid confusion between Christians & Muslims in the Middle East... seriously!

But you also say <b>AND, AND , AND </b> after each name which indicate that you are praying <b>to three persons</b>… now you are calling these three persons one, which is NOT understandable as we’ve discussed earlier.


Salam


Wael

[Faith Hope Charity]

Bismillah:


Yes exactly, then why are you calling your religion as “Christianity” ? Does the Bible <b>describe</b> Jesus' religion as Christianity? Does Jesus himself ever call his faith as Christianity? <b>NO</b>... so you too should not call your religion as Christianity because it was NOT mentioned in the Bible... <b>NOT EVEN ONCE.</b> so don’t blame the Anglican Church, all what they said is that:


Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection <b>MIGHT</b> not have happened <b>EXACTLY</b> as described in the Bible.


<b>Jesus never taught trinity</b>, unless you bring some verses from your Book of authority to support your claim (i.e that Jesus revealed this supernatural truth to the world etc) then you should not promote such thing.


Am going to read it and comment if needed insh a Allah. :)


Most surely you have not come across any Christian who says that <b>God is Jesus</b>!!


If you believe in the above verses, then you should also know that somewhere else in the Qur’an, God informed us that those <b>ORIGINAL</b> scriptures were corrupted by the hands of men to conceal a lot of its truth. and that’s why I always ask you where are your original scriptures?


Sure no comments, because you have only red this verse and for some reasons you were not able to continue reading in order for you to understand the meaning of this verse.


Yes but there are <b>MANY MANY MANY</b> people do worship Mary and Jesus and have totally forgotten about the true Creator!!!, or in you terminology, they’ve forgotten their duty towards the FATHER... and so God wants Jesus pbuh himself to be witness over his followers, so he is asking him this question in order for Jesus to testify loudly and clearly infront of his followers that he did nothing but conveying God’s orders and delivering the same pure message of Abraham and Moses to his people (i.e that we should worship God alone, the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus). and not anyone else.


<b>Yes but from where did you get such prayer? who teach you this prayer? and why do you make the sign of Cross where in fact it was not pracriced by Jesus and it was NOT mentioned in the Bible? </b>


But you also say <b>AND, AND , AND </b> after each name which indicate that you are praying <b>to three persons</b>… now you are calling these three persons one, which is NOT understandable as we’ve discussed earlier.


Salam


Wael

I honestly can't be bothered anymore!


You ask the same questions over & over, Wael!


It's like talking to a brick wall :banghead: I'm becoming brain-dead.


If anyone else would like an answer to one of Wael's questions (or any of your own), please let me know :)


Peace & blessings.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


- I haven’t ask you before about the name of your religion whether it was mentioned in the Bible or not!


-You didn’t show me any verse from the Bible where Jesus <b>HIMSELF</b> taught trinity as you claimed and that’s why I asked you over and over again because am seeking an answer…


- We have not discussed before about other Christians who do say that <i>God Almighty is Jesus </i> in which you said that it is inappropriate to address him with such title.


- You have not given us any answer regarding (the sing of cross)?? and from where did you learn such prayer? and because you have not provided any answer, i thought to ask you once again.


You don’t have to answer these questions if you feel frustrated or maybe its incorrect to answer such questions. And if I asked so much, please forgive me and accept my apology… :)


Salam


Wael.

[reepicheep]

Faith Hope Charity wrote:


> It's like talking to a brick wall I'm becoming brain-dead.


Welcome to the club!


I must admit, FHC, that I've been watching your "wel_mel_2 debates" with a certain morbid fascination, and wondering how long you could keep it up. You've certainly lasted longer than I did. Come to think of it, I think you've lasted longer than any other Christian poster I've seen debate with Wel_mel_2. Well done.


I've often found, when having religious discussions on the web, that at some point it is necessary to invoke Matthew 10:14. Perhaps you've reached that point with Wel_mel_2.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Spirit. Amen.


May the Peace of Our Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ, be with you!


Hello my student, Wael :wavey:


Change of plans. You have a point! I've decided to reply to your comments :D I woke up this morning energized!!!

Yes exactly, then why are you calling your religion as “Christianity” ? Does the Bible <b>describe</b> Jesus' religion as Christianity? Does Jesus himself ever call his faith as Christianity? <b>NO</b>... so you too should not call your religion as Christianity because it was NOT mentioned in the Bible... <b>NOT EVEN ONCE.</b> so don’t blame the Anglican Church, all what they said is that:


Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection <b>MIGHT</b> not have happened <b>EXACTLY</b> as described in the Bible.

"Christian" simply refers to a follower of Christ.


The Anglican Church didn't say that, one of its members did. He's free to say whatever he wants, but the thing is, when you start questioning one belief, what's to stop you from questioning more? That's how Martin Luther's revolt began. The definition of a "Protestant" is someone who protests against the truth. It's not a wise move!

<b>Jesus never taught trinity</b>, unless you bring some verses from your Book of authority to support your claim (i.e that Jesus revealed this supernatural truth to the world etc) then you should not promote such thing.

Yalla hurry!!! Read my thread on 'Discussion of Beliefs' before it disappears.

If you believe in the above verses, then you should also know that somewhere else in the Qur’an, God informed us that those <b>ORIGINAL</b> scriptures were corrupted by the hands of men to conceal a lot of its truth. and that’s why I always ask you where are your original scriptures?

Really? I didn't know that! Could you please provide me with the Sura/Ayat? Thanks :) I mentioned the names of our ancient manuscripts that date back to the early centuries AD (Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus). They agree to what we read today in our Catholic Bibles.

Sure no comments, because you have only red this verse and for some reasons you were not able to continue reading in order for you to understand the meaning of this verse.

I think the following Ayat states that I have a heart condition. Could it be that I'm infected with the Infinite Love of Christ which I pray will spread all over my body. Look out... it's contagious ;)

Yes but there are <b>MANY MANY MANY</b> people do worship Mary and Jesus and have totally forgotten about the true Creator!!!, or in you terminology, they’ve forgotten their duty towards the FATHER... and so God wants Jesus pbuh himself to be witness over his followers, so he is asking him this question in order for Jesus to testify loudly and clearly infront of his followers that he did nothing but conveying God’s orders and delivering the same pure message of Abraham and Moses to his people (i.e that we should worship God alone, the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus). and not anyone else.

Wael, I'm speechless! I can't respond to this remark without disrespecting the Qur'an so I'm afraid I have no choice but to skip it & move on. What I can say is that Catholics only worship God & Jesus is the Son of God - the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. We honor Mother Mary in the same way Jesus honored her. She's a gift given to us by Jesus at the foot of the Cross. She is not divine.


Please allow me to edit what you said slightly to give you a better idea of where I stand...


<i>so <b>the Father</b> is asking <b>H</b>im this question in order for Jesus to testify loudly and clearly infront of his followers that he did nothing but conveying <b>the Father's will</b> and delivering the same pure message of Abraham and Moses to <b>H</b>is people (i.e that we should worship God alone, the God of Abraham, Moses). and not anyone else. </i>


:) :) :)

<b>Yes but from where did you get such prayer? who teach you this prayer? and why do you make the sign of Cross where in fact it was not pracriced by Jesus and it was NOT mentioned in the Bible? </b>

The Sign of the Cross is the prayer of the baptized. Jesus Christ told His Apostles to "baptize all nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (St Matthew 28:19). We cross ourselves because Jesus asked us to deny ourselves & carry our cross daily (St Luke 9:23). The Christian begins his day, his prayers, & his activities with the Sign of the Cross. The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God & calls on the Son's grace which let's him act in the Spirit as an adopted child of the Father. The Sign of the Cross strengthens us in temptations & difficulties.

But you also say <b>AND, AND , AND </b> after each name which indicate that you are praying <b>to three persons</b>… now you are calling these three persons one, which is NOT understandable as we’ve discussed earlier.

Yes! We are praying to Three distinct Persons - the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit - One God. I don't have any problems understanding or accepting this truth. I've tried to simplify it for you in 'Discussion of Beliefs'. Here's a sneak peek...





Now the Catholic faith is this,

that we worship One God in the Trinity and the Trinity in Unity,


neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance.


The Person of the Father is distinct, the Person of the Son is distinct, the Person of the Holy Ghost is distinct;


but of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost


the Divinity is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.


As the Father is, such is the Son, such is the Holy Ghost:


Uncreated is the Father, Uncreated is the Son, Uncreated is the Holy Ghost;


Infinite is the Father, Infinite is the Son, Infinite is the Holy Ghost;


Eternal is the Father, Eternal is the Son, Eternal is the Holy Ghost;


Any yet not three eternals, but One Eternal.


As there are not three uncreated, not three infinites, but One Uncreated and One Infinite.


Likewise, Almighty is the Father, Almighty is the Son, Almighty is the Holy Ghost;


And yet not three almighties, but One Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God;


And yet there are not three gods; there is but One God.


So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Ghost is Lord;


And yet there are not three lords; there is but One Lord.


For we are compelled by Christian truth to confess that each Person is God and Lord;


so are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three gods or lords.


The Father is made by none; not created, nor begotten.


The Son is from the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.


The Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son; not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


Therefore, there is One Father, not three fathers;


there is One Son, not three sons;


there is One Holy Ghost, not three holy ghosts.


And in this Trinity there is none before or after, none greater or less;


but all Three Persons are co-eternal and co-equal.


So that, in all respects, as is aforesaid,


we must worship both the Unity of the Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.


(DS 75: Solemn Teaching of the Church - 5th Century AD)



Wael, take care & God bless you.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:


> It's like talking to a brick wall I'm becoming brain-dead.


Welcome to the club!


I must admit, FHC, that I've been watching your "wel_mel_2 debates" with a certain morbid fascination, and wondering how long you could keep it up. You've certainly lasted longer than I did. Come to think of it, I think you've lasted longer than any other Christian poster I've seen debate with Wel_mel_2. Well done.


I've often found, when having religious discussions on the web, that at some point it is necessary to invoke Matthew 10:14. Perhaps you've reached that point with Wel_mel_2.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


Dude, please jump in & have your say!


I've actually added Wael to my planner. I allocate time during the day to reply to his posts - LOL!


I'm literally running on empty. The Holy Spirit has taken over.


I'm surprised you chose that verse over St Matthew 7:6 ;)


Let's wait & see how many more rounds we can go - hehe!


God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


Change of plans. You have a point! I've decided to reply to your comments :D I woke up this morning energized!!!



Always glad to hear your comments.

"Christian" simply refers to a follower of Christ.

I was talking about the name of your religion, not what the followers of Christ should be called…

The Anglican Church didn't say that, one of its members did. He's free to say whatever he wants!

First of all, its not only one of its member who said that, but <b>the majority of Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus pbuh as God.</b>


again am quoting what was found in the British news papers:

"<b>More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God</b>, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as <b>'God's supreme agent'</b>"

Any sane person can understand why they are in conflict, I say because <b>there is not a single verse in the whole Bible where Jesus explicitly declared that he was God.</b>


Subhana Allah, those Bishops are saying nothing but what Jesus pbuh said about himself.


"And this is life eternal, that <b>they might know thee the only
true God</b>, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3


Without the help of any Church's interpretation or the Holy Ghost, to me <i>ONLY means ONLY</i>... <b>can never be (me "jesus" too is included)</b>


A N D... someone who was SENT, in the English language we call him a messenger, and this is what Jesus pbuh said about himself.


Heinz Zahrnt said:

"put words into the mouth of Jesus which he never spoke and attributed actions to him which he never performed."

Yalla hurry!!! Read my thread on 'Discussion of Beliefs' before it disappears.

It's not going to disappear FHC, did any of your posts disapeared before? … don’t worry, am going to post my comments soon insh a Allah.

Really? I didn't know that! Could you please provide me with the Sura/Ayat? Thanks .

"There is among them (Jews) a section <b>who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from Allah,' but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah and (well) they know it!" </b> (Surah 3, Ali 'Imran, verse 78).


"But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: <b>They change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them</b>, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few- ever bent on (new) deceits: But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): For God loveth those who are kind" (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 13).


There are many other verses I may post later insh a Allah.

I mentioned the names of our ancient manuscripts that date back to the early centuries AD (Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus). They agree to what we read today in our Catholic Bibles

Where are these <b>ORIGINAL</b> scriptures? and how did you know that they are matching perfectly with the catholic BibleS?? and how can i get copy of those original manuscripts to compare them with today's Bible? and do you have any original that was writting in the language that was spoken by Jesus pbuh himself?

<i>so <b>the Father</b> is asking <b>H</b>im this question in order for Jesus to testify loudly and clearly infront of his followers that he did nothing but conveying <b>the Father's will</b> and delivering the same pure message of Abraham and Moses to <b>H</b>is people (i.e that we should worship God alone, the God of Abraham, Moses). and not anyone else. </i>

What a great idea!! is this how you guys are expert in changing the words :D

The Sign of the Cross is the prayer of the baptized. Jesus Christ told His Apostles to "baptize all nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (St Matthew 28:19). We cross ourselves because Jesus asked us to deny ourselves & carry our cross daily (St Luke 9:23). The Christian begins his day, his prayers, & his activities with the Sign of the Cross. The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God & calls on the Son's grace which let's him act in the Spirit as an adopted child of the Father. The Sign of the Cross strengthens us in temptations & difficulties.

No comments.

Yes! We are praying to Three distinct Persons - the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit - One God. I don't have any problems understanding or accepting this truth. I've tried to simplify it for you in 'Discussion of Beliefs'. Here's a sneak peek...

my reply is coming soon insh a Allah on "discussion and beliefs" thread.

I've actually added Wael to my planner. I allocate time during the day to reply to his posts - LOL!
I'm literally running on empty. The Holy Spirit has taken over.


I'm surprised you chose that verse over St Matthew 7:6 ;)


Let's wait & see how many more rounds we can go - hehe

If i am bothering you that much please let me know, no hard feelings at all. :)


Salam


Wael