A Comparison

[Ruggedtouch]

<b>Please don't consider this disrespect. These are the words of Ishaq...not mine. If they aren't true...please explain and tell us.</b>

Hey - the Pope made the singularly offensive mistake of quoting the words of another and the moslem world launched into finger wagging, hate spewing, restaurant burning, victimhood uttering, "war against Islam" whining buffoonery. Somewhere, someone is scratching out a fatwa.


Check the underside of your car tonight.

[unit]

Hey - the Pope made the singularly offensive mistake of quoting the words of another and the moslem world launched into finger wagging, hate spewing, restaurant burning, victimhood uttering,

to be fair, the media says they were but a small portion of the whole speech, but this is not exactly true when you compare the amount of time he spent whooping it up to the total amount of speech.. surely the pope is not a stupid or insensitive man (and there is a decree saying the pope is infallible) i feel this was no mistake or slip of the tounge, it was done with purpose..

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Teh I found Wael's thread Alhamdulelah:


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=3573

[Faith Hope Charity]

<b>Hey Unit & Teh_Curious, how's it going?</b>


Are you boys from Sydney?

why can't the trinity be explained simply? :banghead:

<b>The doctrine of the most Holy & Blessed Trinity made simple:</b>


Even though there are three uniquely different states of water, (liquid, solid, and gas) they are still water. In the same way, these states of water can remind us of the triune nature of God.


The solid form of water (ice) reminds us of God the FATHER. Ice is hard. It is solid. In the same way, God the FATHER is our solid foundation.


The liquid form of water reminds us of God the SON. Water is useful for cleansing. In the same way, God the SON, died on the cross to cleanse us of our sin.


The gas form of water reminds us of God the HOLY SPIRIT. Gas cannot be seen, but you can see the effects of it. As we did when we saw the water droplets on the plastic, or felt the warmth of the steam from the hot water. In the same way, the HOLY SPIRIT cannot be seen, but the effects of his presence can be seen and felt in our lives as the HOLY SPIRIT works to make his will known to us and to change us to be more like him.


(Sarah A. Keith)


<b>The doctrine of the most Holy & Blessed Trinity from a theological perspective:</b>


Christians acknowledge one God - Unbegotten, Eternal, Invisible, incapable of being acted upon, Incomprehensible, Unbounded - who is known only by understanding & reason. By whom all things through His Word have been produced & said in order & are kept in existence. We recognize also the Son of God. Let no one think it laughable that God should have a Son, for we do not conceive of either God the Father or God the Son as the poets do, who in their myth-making represent the gods as no better than men. The Son of God is the Word of the Father, in thought & in actuality. By Him & through Him all things were made, the Father & the Son being One. Since the Son is in the Father & the Father is in the Son by the Unity & Power of the Spirit, the Mind & Word of the Father is the Son of God. If in your exceedingly great wisdom it occurs to you to enquire what is meant by the Son, I will tell you briefly. He is the first begotten of the Father, not as having being produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in Himself, God being eternal Mind & eternally Rational. Who then would not be astonished to hear men speak of God the Father & of God the Son & of the Holy Spirit.


(St Justin Martyr 150AD)


The three things are existence, knowledge & will. For I can say that I am, I know & I will. I am a being which knows & wills. I know both that I am & that I will. I will both to be & to know. In these three - being, knowledge & will - there is one inseparable life. One life. One mind. One essence. Therefore, although they are distinct from one another, the distinction does not separate them. This must be plain to anyone who has the ability to understand it. In fact, he need not look beyond himself. Let him examine himself closely, take stock, & tell me what he finds. For none of us can easily conceive whether God is a Trinity because all these three -immutable being, immutable knowledge & immutable will - are together in him. Whether all three are together in each person of the Trinity, so that each is threefold or whether both these suppositions are true & in some wonderful way in which the simple & the multiple are one, though God is Infinite He is yet an end to Himself & in Himself, so that the Trinity is in Itself, & is known to Itself, & suffices to Itself, the Supreme Being, One alone immutably, in the vastness of its Unity. This is a mystery that none can explain, & which of us would presume to assert that he can?


(St Augustine 354-430 AD)


Here the mystery deepens. Three Distinct Persons & only One God. How is this possible? Reason understands that there is no contradiction, because it is a Trinity of Persons & a Unity of Divine Nature. But the difficulty remains. Each of the Persons is the same God. How can They be really distinct? The reply which our reason stammers is based on the concept of relation. The Three Divine Persons are distinguished among Themselves solely by the relations which They have with One Another. Precisely by the relation of the Father to the Son; of the Son to the Father; of the Father & the Son to the Spirit; & of the Spirit to the Father & the Son. The Council of Florence in 1442 could therefore state, "These Three Persons are One God, because the Three are One Substance, One Essence, One Nature, One Divinity, One Immensity, One Eternity... in God everything is one & the same, where there is no opposition of relation".


(Pope John Paul II 1985)


God - Father Son Holy Spirit - have one nature or substance; one power & authority. There is a consubstantial Trinity; one deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons.


There is only one God the Father from whom all these come. There is one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are. There is one Holy Spirit in whom all things come to be.


(2nd Council of Constantinople 553AD)


<b>God bless.</b>

[unit]

Hey Unit & Teh_Curious, how's it going? Are you boys from Sydney?

indeed we are..

The doctrine of the most Holy & Blessed Trinity made simple: (Sarah A. Keith)

that was actually informative.. i just wonder if it's factual? hehe

The doctrine of the most Holy & Blessed Trinity from a theological perspective: (St Justin Martyr 150AD)

i was already thinking of "the word was god/the word was with god" and here it is mentioned.. it does not add much to my understanding..

(St Augustine 354-430 AD)

hmm.. with what i already know of esoteric matters.. this sends a chill up my spine.. hearing some guy from over 1000 years ago using the words


'will' and 'knowledge' does not bode well with me.. according to job 28:28 "the beginning of wisdom is the fear (or reverence) of the Lord, and to depart from evil, that is understanding" -- hearing a bible person talk to me of will and knowledge just don't sound right??

Here the mystery deepens.

i don't understand this psychobabble at 1:43 in the morning..


EG)

Three Distinct Persons & only One God. How is this possible? Reason understands that there is no contradiction, because it is a Trinity of Persons & a Unity of Divine Nature.

wha?? trinity of persons??

But the difficulty remains. Each of the Persons is the same God.

you're losing me, doc

The reply which our reason stammers is based on the concept of relation. The Three Divine Persons...

i see.. it's my fault? :P

(Pope John Paul II 1985)

ah if i knew this divine person was involved i would have ignored the paragraph.. did PJP2 do anything worthwhile apart from getting shot?

This is a mystery that none can explain, & which of us would presume to assert that he can?

heh.. you said it..

God - Father Son Holy Spirit - have one nature or substance; one power & authority. There is a consubstantial Trinity; one deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons.

:55:

There is only one God the Father from whom all these come. There is one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are. There is one Holy Spirit in whom all things come to be.
(2nd Council of Constantinople 553AD)

2nd council? didn't they screw it up enough in the 1st council (you know.. where they edited the bible to suit their needs)

God bless.

..and thine also

[Faith Hope Charity]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


You have me in stitches, man :lol:


Consider yourself lucky you're an Aussie otherwise I'd resort to violence because of what you said about JP2 :punch: Nah, just kidding ;) I guess he couldn't please everyone :(


We need to meet up for coffee one day :)

[unit]

thnx, glad u saw the humor ;) (some of that info i have encountered before..)


i don't hate the pontif and i wouldn't want him or anyone shot (was peeved earlier tonight) but i don't really like the vatican and friends.. if/when our paths cross i will try to explain why..

[Ruggedtouch]

to be fair, the media says they were but a small portion of the whole speech, but this is not exactly true when you compare the amount of time he spent whooping it up to the total amount of speech.. surely the pope is not a stupid or insensitive man (and there is a decree saying the pope is infallible) i feel this was no mistake or slip of the tounge, it was done with purpose..

I can’t say I know for certainty one way or another. I don’t believe that to be the issue, however. There’s nothing <i>fair</i> about responding to criticism of one’s faith with murder and mayhem.


There’s an obvious double standard being applied here by Moslems. The most virulently hateful rhetoric that exists on the planet comes straight from the Mosques of the Islamic Middle East, courtesy of the Imams, Clerics and Sheiks during Friday prayers. Jews as beasts, Christians as blasphemers, infidels as dirty, etc., etc. and all part and parcel of government sponsored hate mongering.


Let’s suppose the Pope did have an agenda for using the descriptions he used, so what? Why is it that Moslems believe their religion to be beyond reproach or criticism? Remember that any system that doesn't allow self-criticism and/or questioning is by definition a system that has something to hide. If the religion is noble and honest and could withstand even the slightest investigation, then the criticism of a mere mortal should not cause it’s adherents to launch into murderous fits.


I maintain those same standards apply equally to me. By all means, challenge my positions and critique my reasoning. Hate me if you must, but don't threaten my life or the lives of my family because I disagree with you and unapologetically criticize you. One is not civil or decent and in fact, one is lacking in morals and ethics if you threaten a man's life and urge others to murder him because he authored a book, for example, that challenges the ethics and morality of a vaguely historical character that some happen to revere as a religious figure. Moslems have yet to grasp this simple ethical concept. Actually, it turns this dynamic on its head by making murderous violence against its critics a noble, religious obligation.

[unit]

B) ..i knew it would not be so easy dealing with you ;)

I can’t say I know for certainty one way or another. I don’t believe that to be the issue, however. There’s nothing fair about responding to criticism of one’s faith with murder and mayhem.

well you've got me there.. (but you must admit then the pope was sh*t-stirring?) this is not something a 'pope' should do..? (don't you agree?) violence is never a way to solve a problem, you are correct.. (what can i say?) if the pope wants to live by the sword...

There’s an obvious double standard being applied here by Moslems. The most virulently hateful rhetoric that exists on the planet comes straight from the Mosques of the Islamic Middle East, courtesy of the Imams, Clerics and Sheiks during Friday prayers. Jews as beasts, Christians as blasphemers, infidels as dirty, etc., etc. and all part and parcel of government sponsored hate mongering.

state sponsored terrorism.. it knows no bounds.. i hear you.. (and i hear them saying the hateful rhetoric also) is this ALL muslims or a subgroup? (i guess we both know the answer to that?) are you saying because the muslims talked trash the pope may also? (where's vince McMahon? this is gonna be the match of the decade..)

Let’s suppose the Pope did have an agenda for using the descriptions he used, so what?

let's suppose the vatican had an agenda for the world.. so what..? :o

Why is it that Moslems believe their religion to be beyond reproach or criticism?

they do?

Remember that any system that doesn't allow self-criticism and/or questioning is by definition a system that has something to hide.

exactly.. i say the same about freemasons and roman catholics.. why should something be 'blasphemous' (hurtful to God) i thought nothing could hurt God..???

If the religion is noble and honest and could withstand even the slightest investigation, then the criticism of a mere mortal should not cause it’s adherents to launch into murderous fits.

no argument there ;)

I maintain those same standards apply equally to me.

as well you should :) (how else would people respect you?)

By all means, challenge my positions and critique my reasoning.

i'll try ;)

Hate me if you must,

no way :)

but don't threaten my life or the lives of my family because I disagree with you and unapologetically criticize you.

can i get a large fries too?

One is not civil or decent and in fact, one is lacking in morals and ethics if you threaten a man's life and urge others to murder him because he authored a book, for example, that challenges the ethics and morality of a vaguely historical character that some happen to revere as a religious figure.

salmon rushdie anyone?

Moslems have yet to grasp this simple ethical concept.

(ouch)

Actually, it turns this dynamic on its head by making murderous violence against its critics a noble, religious obligationouch..

suppose it's easier to destroy something than try to coexist with it..?


looking foreward to what happens next :) (btw i have no stance.. personally i think religions are used as control systems)

[Ruggedtouch]

well you've got me there.. (but you must admit then the pope was sh*t-stirring?) this is not something a 'pope' should do..? (don't you agree?) violence is never a way to solve a problem, you are correct.. (what can i say?) if the pope wants to live by the sword...

I don’t admit that the Pope was sh*t-stirring at all.


Let’s be honest, Moslems hold their belief system to be impervious to criticism.


Why are Moslems so reactionary and why so defensive?. It’s absolutely astonishing that Moslems view any critique, any hard questions, any criticism at all of Islam as “attacking Muslims”. Here in the West, one can find any number of books, film or media which criticizes Republican politics, Christianity, leftist media, modern art, magic crystal ball healing power...you name it, we are free to shine the bright, glaring light of criticism upon it. And I've got to say, I can't remember anyone in the U.S. being killed over this. We like the knowledge that we can disagree with one another, express that disagreement (in a lawful, non-threatening way), and be done with it. Clearly, people can understandably become upset at some cast dispersion when beliefs they hold dear are ridiculed or impugned, but here in the U.S. at least, the majority of us take it with nary a flinch.

state sponsored terrorism.. it knows no bounds.. i hear you.. (and i hear them saying the hateful rhetoric also) is this ALL muslims or a subgroup? (i guess we both know the answer to that?) are you saying because the muslims talked trash the pope may also? (where's vince McMahon? this is gonna be the match of the decade..)

I don’t claim that all Moslems subscribe to the hateful rhetoric coming from many of their spiritual leaders but silence to this suggests tacit endorsement. We hear of the <i>tiny minority of violent extremists™</i> but you know what, It’s not so tiny.

let's suppose the vatican had an agenda for the world.. so what..?

I'm not following this.

they do?

Ask the Pope, Theo Van Gogh, Salman Rushdie, Hirsi Ali Sina… the list goes on. Hey – I’ve only got a 60 gig hard drive.

exactly.. i say the same about freemasons and roman catholics.. why should something be 'blasphemous' (hurtful to God) i thought nothing could hurt God..???

That depends on which particular god(s).

can i get a large fries too?

Yes. Drive through, please.

salmon rushdie anyone?

Among a litany of others

(ouch)

The truth will set you free.

ouch..
I suppose it's easier to destroy something than try to coexist with it..? ..

Hence the ban or restrictions on competing religious faiths in most of the Islamic world.

looking foreward to what happens next (btw i have no stance.. personally i think religions are used as control systems)

Iran is acquiring the means to wage nuclear jihad and to usher in the endtimes. I’m not looking forward to that.