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wel_mel_2 · 09-26-2006, 04:00 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:1 John 5:7-9 (New International Version)

For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

This verse has been expunged from most of the revised editions of the Bible(S) as it was found to be not from the original manuscript but a later addition. You can read the RSV (Revised Standard Version) which was translated from the original language, also in the NIV (New international version) copyright 1973, 1978, 1983... This verse doesn't exist.

Plus there are plenty of verses in the Bible that shows that Jesus pbuh was NOT co equal or co eternal with God Almighty in any sense. He has been always subject to God's will and still remain to be so.

Your explanation of trinity shows your OWN opinion, which does not mean that you are right. Not at all.

Salam

Wael

AlShamms · (This post was last modified: 09-27-2006, 04:14 PM by AlShamms.)

Peace....

Wael, you bring up a few different points and I'm try to address them from a Biblical perspective so that no accusation of me using my opinion will come up.

You mention that because men don't understand the concept of one God in three persons, and in their attempt to understand they label it a mystery, then the idea of the trinity has to be man made because God is not the author of confusion. Ok, here we go.

First what needs to be addressed is the fact that there are indeed mysteries about God contained in the Bible, and simply because something is a mystery or unknown does not mean it is confusing or man made. An example of such mysteries is:

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:[u/] The "mystery" of the kingdom of God is given to some, and not to others.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Wael, you also quote many men who seem to believe that the concept of the trinity is not Biblically taught but added to Christian worship later in history. You quote one such source as saying:

"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the (Trinity) idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."

(The Paganism in Our Christianity)

My question to you then is: The author of the above states the early Christians "paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and thy recognized the Holy Spirit"

What then are "devotions" and how were they paid to Jesus Christ? And what did the early Christians recognize the Holy Spirit to be?

Well "devotions" as an English word appears in the Bible once, in Acts 17:23:

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Now "devotion" in Greek is the term "sebasma" and means, according to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "whatever is religiously honoured something adored, an object of worship". If “devotions” were paid to Jesus Christ by the early Christians, then they must have recognized Christ as being one worthy of such worship and did not think it blasphemous to do so. I’ve already shown you evidence that the early Christians recognized the Holy Spirit to be God as is evidenced by the verses quoted before.

Let’s recap so far: Early Christians recognized God and worshiped him. They also recognized Jesus Christ as the Son of God and worshiped him. They also recognized the Holy Spirit as God. This triune nature is indeed found throughout the New Testament. In 2nd Corinthians we read:

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”

Also in 1st Peter we read: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

So simply because the word “trinity” wasn’t used does not mean the doctrine that the word implies was not taught.

Wael, you also quote from a book entitled “Should You Believe in the Trinity” I’d like to ask, where did you find this book? Who wrote it? When was it published? Once again I believe you aren’t being honest or forthcoming in this conversation we’re having. I ask because I know of a group that produced such a book. A group that call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses and every serious Biblical scholar knows them to have written their own bible to suit their unbiblical doctrines.

Wael, are you quoting a sect of Christianity to try to prove your disbelief in the Trinity? A cult that no true Christian would accept as being apart of Christ’s church? Wouldn’t that be the same as me quoting something from the Shia sect to you? Would you accept anything from them?

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · 09-28-2006, 03:49 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:You mention that because men don't understand the concept of one God in three persons, and in their attempt to understand they label it a mystery,

These are not just 'men' Shamms, they are Christian scholars, Bishops, Pope, great thinkers and people who spent their entire life reading and researching. I was not quoting what my Christians friends said about Trinity

Quote:First what needs to be addressed is the fact that there are indeed mysteries about God contained in the Bible, and simply because something is a mystery or unknown does not mean it is confusing or man made.

I totally agree, but when it comes to ‘central beliefs’, or something that you must believe in it or else you will be lost, then things has to be clear and need not any philosophical explanation and stretching words to suite people’s desires. And until this day no one was able to explain Trinity and no one was able to understand it. , and if you or anyone else claim to understand this concpet, then explain it in a very simple manner for the benefit of those who are not clever.

Quote:Wael, you also quote many men who seem to believe that the concept of the trinity is not Biblically taught but added to Christian worship later in history. You quote one such source as saying:
"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the (Trinity) idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."

(The Paganism in Our Christianity)

My question to you then is: The author of the above states the early Christians "paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and thy recognized the Holy Spirit"

What then are "devotions" and how were they paid to Jesus Christ? And what did the early Christians recognize the Holy Spirit to be?

Well "devotions" as an English word appears in the Bible once, in Acts 17:23:

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Now "devotion" in Greek is the term "sebasma" and means, according to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "whatever is religiously honoured something adored, an object of worship". If “devotions” were paid to Jesus Christ by the early Christians, then they must have recognized Christ as being one worthy of such worship and did not think it blasphemous to do so. I’ve already shown you evidence that the early Christians recognized the Holy Spirit to be God as is evidenced by the verses quoted before.

First of all, No Christian was able to show me a single verse where Jesus himsef said i am God or where he said worship me, and no where will you find any command to worship the holy spirit. All these verses were refuted during my discussion with CC… if you have sometime, try to read my previous posts and threads about Christianity and bring topic for discussion if you think that am wrong.

Secondly, paying devotions to Jesus does not in anyway make him God. I do pay devotion to my wife too, but guess what? I don’t consider her as God.

And lastly, honoring Jesus does not make him God also; doesn’t he tell you to honor your father and mother? Do you consider your parents as Gods too?

Quote:Let’s recap so far: Early Christians recognized God and worshiped him. They also recognized Jesus Christ as the Son of God and worshiped him. They also recognized the Holy Spirit as God.

How??? The concept of the Trinity was originally adopted by Christianity three centuries after the departure of Jesus then how is it possible for the early Christians to know anything about it? You can read some historical books on this fact.

Christians books

Quote:This triune nature is indeed found throughout the New Testament. In 2nd Corinthians we read:
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”

You must be kidding me? Where does this verse say that these three persons are ONE and the same thing? And if someone ignorant pray for me that may Muhammad pbuh and God be with you, will you consider that Muhammad pbuh is also God?

Quote:Also in 1st Peter we read: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Again, where does this verse say that all of them are ONE GOD? … the only verse which is close to the meaning of trinity is 1 John 5:7 and you can find this verse in the KJV till today, but even this verse was removed by 32 scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperating denominations of Christianity because this verse NOT TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE in the original manuscripts.

Quote:So simply because the word “trinity” wasn’t used does not mean the doctrine that the word implies was not taught.

We are not looking for a word, but the concept itself. Which is not found in the bible, and all verses provided by Christians are ambiguous, insufficient or impossible.

Quote:Wael, you also quote from a book entitled “Should You Believe in the Trinity” I’d like to ask, where did you find this book? Who wrote it? When was it published?

It was published by Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and yes it is belongs to Jehovah’s Witness cult… but I was not convincing you by what they believe regarding Trinity!! I was only quoting from their booklet what well known personalities WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SECT said about Trinity. Now these quotations can be found in many other sources if you don’t like reading this book.

You can read Encyclopedia Britannica regarding the council of Nicaea, Daily News, U.K talking about Trinity and divinity of Jesus, Commentary on the Holy Bible by J. R., dummelow, The History of the Christian in the Light of Modern Knowledge by T.G. Tucker, Jesus Christ is not God, American Christian Press by Victor Paul Wierwille, A History of the Christian Church, The Early Church by Henry Chadwick, The Church in History by B.K. Kuiper, and many others.

Quote:Once again I believe you aren’t being honest or forthcoming in this conversation we’re having.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged….
Luke 6:37

Honesty is a part of our faith, Alhamdulelah. It is not my intention to be dishonest or else I will not deserve to be a Muslim.

So instead of talking about something you don’t know, just focus on Trinity and prove it if you can.

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 09-28-2006, 01:45 PM

Peace.....

Wael, you made many comments, give me time, I will respond.

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · 09-28-2006, 11:52 PM

Bismillah:

Quote:Peace.....

Wael, you made many comments, give me time, I will respond.

Shamms

sure, take your time.

Salam

Wael

John 15:18 · 09-29-2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:First of all, No Christian was able to show me a single verse where Jesus himsef said i am God or where he said worship me,

Have you considered John 8:58?

"I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "Before Abraham was born, I Am".

Now, before you say that this verse says nothing about Jesus claiming to be God, consider this:

1 - Before Abraham was even born (i.e. before the founding of earthly religion), Jesus was. He has outlasted earthly religion (all three religions of the book), and ascended up to heaven bodily. Basically, he is eternal.

2 - Jesus was in existence before Judaism, before Islam, and before Christianity. So, he exists outside those earthly systems, and his relationship to God is not dependent on them.

3 - "I am". He does not say that he was, but rather that he is. That shows his eternity.

4 - "I am". This echoes back to Exodus 3:14: "God said to Moses: I AM who I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites. I AM has sent me to you." God also said to Moses: "Say to the Israelites, 'the Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation".

That's how God described himself. It is also how Jesus described himself. Debate it if you will, but you were looking for one verse where Jesus said he was God. That's it.

wel_mel_2 · 09-29-2006, 02:48 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:Have you considered John 8:58

Of course am aware of this verse, in fact I have discussed this same verse with ‘curious Christian’ before, but here we go again.

Quote:"I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "Before Abraham was born, I Am".

First you must understand that "before Abraham was I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would you say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec Hebrews 7:3, who were supposedly present not only before Abraham pbuh, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? 

Proverbs 8

Quote:8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

8:23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

8:24

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

8:25

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

8:26

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, F32 nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

8:27

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass F33 upon the face of the depth:

8:28

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

8:29

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

8:30

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

8:31

Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Hebrews 7

Quote:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, F19 having neither beginning of days, nor end of life;......

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.

Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty!!!! (Astaghfurullah). Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?

Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (which was Jesus) he replied:

"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17

Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.

Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"

Is it so impossible for us to bring one clear verse like for example Isaiah 66:23 where Jesus HIMSELF also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right to say it plainly that he is God. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth...

Why is it necessary: 

1-For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and

2- for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father." ?????

while it is not
necessary:

1- For Jesus pbuh to explicitly command us to worship him, or

2- for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?

Salam

Wael

wel_mel_2 · 09-29-2006, 02:53 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:Have you considered John 8:58

Of course am aware of this verse, in fact I have discussed this same verse with ‘curious Christian’ before, but here we go again.

Quote:"I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "Before Abraham was born, I Am".

First you must understand that "before Abraham was I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would you say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec Hebrews 7:3, who were supposedly present not only before Abraham pbuh, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? 

Proverbs 8

Quote:8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

8:23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

8:24

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

8:25

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

8:26

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, F32 nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

8:27

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass F33 upon the face of the depth:

8:28

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

8:29

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

8:30

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

8:31

Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Hebrews 7

Quote:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, F19 having neither beginning of days, nor end of life;......

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.

Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty!!!! (Astaghfurullah). Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?

Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (which was Jesus) he replied:

"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17 NOT GOD, and not even GOD THE SON... but a prophet.

Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.

Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"

Is it so impossible for us to bring one clear verse like for example Isaiah 66:23 where Jesus HIMSELF also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right to say it plainly that he is God. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth...

Why is it necessary: 

1-For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and

2- for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father." ?????

while it is NOT necessary:

1- For Jesus pbuh to explicitly command us to worship him, or

2- for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?

Salam

Wael

reepicheep · 09-29-2006, 03:40 AM

wel_mel, it appears that all you have done is post an unattributed "cut and paste" from the writings of Misha'al Ibn Abdullah Al-Kadhi. You can find a detailed rebuttal to his "logic" here:

Jesus said 'I am' so he must be God

wel_mel_2 · 09-29-2006, 03:58 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:wel_mel, it appears that all you have done is post an unattributed "cut and paste" from the writings of Misha'al Ibn Abdullah Al-Kadhi. You can find a detailed rebuttal to his "logic" here:

Jesus said 'I am' so he must be God

I think this same link you have posted before during my discussion with CC, so instead of playing smart ‘as usual’ try to convince me that Jesus is God with your own understanding… because you know well that we have answered ‘answering-islam.org’ at ‘answering-christianity.com, so am not convinced with their answers because it does not make any sense. Their basic answer on this topic is that we should not make demands on God, in other words that we should foolishly believe without understanding what’s going on.

So if you understand the concept of trinity, prove it to those who are not clever, how God is going to reveal this very very difficult concept to someone who is mentally not capable of digesting such idea … same question I posed to Shamms.

Salam

Wael

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