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In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
I ONCE WAS LOST, BUT NOW AM FOUND!! MASHALLAH! SUBHANA ALLAH SUBHANA ALLAH!
It's been a year and a half since my reversion back to my original faith-Islam, I became interested in religion 3 years ago and started out as a Muslim (since I was born one) and thought I was a Christian until evidences became clear to me, and erradicated the lies and opened my eyes to the truth. All praises and thanks be to Allah who guided me by the Qu'ran and countless other sources to the ONE TRUE FAITH, the faith of Adam, Noah, Lot, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, David, Soloman and Muhammed (peace be upon them all, and peace be upon the phophets i didnt mention).
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SO why is it that Christains believe in the Trinity, That God is three in one, if Allah/God revealed to us that this is not so?
Why do Christains believe in the trinity, that God is three in one, if Jesus spoke the opposite??
Allah reveals the truth about Jesus:
O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and his word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three"----Cease! (it is) better for you!----Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
The Messiah will not scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Who scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him:
Then, as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will He pay their wages in full, adding unto them of His bounty; and as for those who were scornful and proud, them will He punish with a painful doom.
And they will not find for them, against Allah, any protecting friend or helper.
O mankind! Now hath a proof from your Lord come unto you, and We have sent down unto you a clear light; As for those who believe in Allah, and hold fast unto Him, them He will cause to enter into His mercy and grace, and He will guide them unto Him by a straight road.
(The Meaning if the Glorious Qur'an 4:171-176)
Jesus made it clear that he is not God:
"Why do you call me God? No one is God but God alone." (Mark 10:18)
"I can do nothing of my own authority" (John 5:30)
"I do as the Father has commanded me." (John 14:31)
Allah says in the Qur'an:
"The similtude of Jesus Before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be": And he was. The truth (comes) From thy Lord alone: So be not of those who doubt" (Qur'an 3:59-60)
If God was three or a Trinity, why would Jesus command himself to do anything, why would he denounce himself being called God, and why would Jesus say that God is One-Alone without partner?? The Qu'ran and the Bible confirm this, so why do Christains believe contrary to there own book and teachings????
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Bismillah:
Quote:In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
I ONCE WAS LOST, BUT NOW AM FOUND!! MASHALLAH! SUBHANA ALLAH SUBHANA ALLAH!
It's been a year and a half since my reversion back to my original faith-Islam, I became interested in religion 3 years ago and started out as a Muslim (since I was born one) and thought I was a Christian until evidences became clear to me, and erradicated the lies and opened my eyes to the truth. All praises and thanks be to Allah who guided me by the Qu'ran and countless other sources to the ONE TRUE FAITH, the faith of Adam, Noah, Lot, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, David, Soloman and Muhammed (peace be upon them all, and peace be upon the phophets i didnt mention).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO why is it that Christains believe in the Trinity, That God is three in one, if Allah/God revealed to us that this is not so?
Why do Christains believe in the trinity, that God is three in one, if Jesus spoke the opposite??
Allah reveals the truth about Jesus:
O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and his word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three"----Cease! (it is) better for you!----Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
The Messiah will not scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Who scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him:
Then, as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will He pay their wages in full, adding unto them of His bounty; and as for those who were scornful and proud, them will He punish with a painful doom.
And they will not find for them, against Allah, any protecting friend or helper.
O mankind! Now hath a proof from your Lord come unto you, and We have sent down unto you a clear light; As for those who believe in Allah, and hold fast unto Him, them He will cause to enter into His mercy and grace, and He will guide them unto Him by a straight road.
(The Meaning if the Glorious Qur'an 4:171-176)
Jesus made it clear that he is not God:
"Why do you call me God? No one is God but God alone." (Mark 10:18)
"I can do nothing of my own authority" (John 5:30)
"I do as the Father has commanded me." (John 14:31)
Allah says in the Qur'an:
"The similtude of Jesus Before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be": And he was. The truth (comes) From thy Lord alone: So be not of those who doubt" (Qur'an 3:59-60)
If God was three or a Trinity, why would Jesus command himself to do anything, why would he denounce himself being called God, and why would Jesus say that God is One-Alone without partner?? The Qu'ran and the Bible confirm this, so why do Christains believe contrary to there own book and teachings????
I guess Mark 10:18 says "Why callest thou me <b>good?</b> There is <b>none good but one</b>, <b>that is God</b>"
Please check from which version you quote marked 10:18... Or was it a typo error?
Salam
Wael.
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09-21-2006, 02:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2006, 03:02 PM by AlShamms.)
Peace.....
I don't mind having this discussion, but we have to set up some ground rules first. I say that because it's difficult to try to disprove the doctrine of Trinity using a different book. It's like playing a sport but using two different sets of rules. So, if you'd like to discuss the Trinity from a Biblical standpoint. I'm all for it. But quoting from the Qur'an on a Biblical doctrine is, in my opinion, useless. So with that said I'll wait, see what everyone who's interested has to say, then we can begin.
And another thing, I would like the purpose of the proposed debate to be clearly stated...a moderator would be nice, Muslimah comes to mind. She's fair and impartial and knows how to keep a thread on track :D .
Shamms
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The trinity is a very simple concept, and does not conflict with the wisdom embodied in any of the prophets.
Jesus can best be understood as a special prophet, in that he is not the son of man but the son of God. (Virgin birth, etc.) Yet, does he say anything new? He is the news.
He is the sacrificial lamb. ie, He is Isaac. The sacrifice that Abraham did not make God made as a sign of his faith TO mankind. In other words, Faith is a two-way street. Just as God demands and wants faith, obedience and love from us, He too has set the same standards for himself in regard to his relationship with us. He will forgive us all our sins, no questions asked.
So we need to see Jesus as the Son of God because he is the son of God. That is why Jesus says that everyone must enter through him. Just as the prophets were stoned, so too was Jesus. The world rejects God's wisdom and love. But, in accepting Jesus we automatically accept all the prophets that came before and after him. Thus the crucifix is the symbol of an intersection. No longer is just a special group chosen; everyone is chosen. (Why this was before I do not know, but clearly many people had faith on their own before the prophets spoke as well. There is nothing difficult to understand about God's wisdom. It is kind of obvious that love is better than hate, but those entangled in fear, pride and greed do not see through the fog.)
The Holy Spirit is the Counselor that Jesus said would come after he left. Thus we presumably have a greater insight to certain things than previous generations did, and this wisdom grows. Who knows, right? It really adds another element to what is already a great mystery. (Life is a mystery, as well as God.) So as we burden ourselves with more and more "facts" and people on the planet, we still need a guide. Just as we grow wiser as we grow older individually, perhaps we as humanity are growing wiser as well generationally. (This is a scary topic because we are obviously pretty stupid right now, so we must have been considerably stupider before.) Yet, what is it that makes the prophets always unwelcome? It is because they sow peace in a land of hate, charity in a land of greed, humility in a land of pride. The Spirit will teach us who we are if we are willing to listen, but we do not want to meet ourselves. All of the prophets will lead you to the Spirit, and the Spirit will lead you to God through Jesus.
There was a time when I was always asking myself if the bread of the new covenat had died. (The Israelites ate the bread of the old covenant, which died.) When they got new bread, everyone got new bread with them. Jesus is the King of the Jews, not the Christians. In reality we should all call ourselves Jews.
But what are we really doing in our lives? Remember it is a reciprocal relationship with God. While it is common to say that "Jesus Saves" in reality we are saving Jesus. He is still on the cross. Everytime we bring hate and anger and pride and greed into the world (and we all do this, no matter how hard we try not to) that burden falls on Jesus' shoulders. The only way we can lift the burden from Him is to lift the burden from each other. And that is why the purpose of faith is to teach faith. It isn't about building buildings or schools or systems of government and law, etc. Faith is about faith. Yes, it can be reduced to loving God and loving one another.
Thus, it isn't about "my God" is better. It is simply about understanding "our" God. How we worship is a minor detail, and yet that is what people spend all their time discussing like it is the most important detail, and then try to force others to go through the same calistenics. God exists in our heart and our mind. There is nothing that can be observed outwardly to reveal someone's faith or lack thereof. Faith is not a religious performance.
But in everyone is the possibility of infinite faith, and that is the spark we need to nurture within one another. Just as God has infinite faith in us, and we in Him, so too must we have infinite faith in each other. That is what Jesus represents. He never turned away from those who hated Him. He knew they needed Him.
The story of Jesus represents a rebuttal of all the various doubts about the existence of God, the power of love, and the energy of faith, that the prophets have long proclaimed and the people have rejected. Humanity wanted proof, and so God gave them proof, but the devil is still at work, and he tricks many into deceiving themselves. Beware the mirror, for all the lies you believe you created and nurtured. Many were fed to you when you were young. Yet, if you ask you will be answered.
You also are the trinity. You exist, yet you give rebirth to yourself. You are both the Father and the son and the spirit. Your body is the temple. Your mind and heart is the Spirit. Your tongue is rudder and your breath is the wind. The course you chart is according to your faith. Thus there is no "answer" of which religion is right or wrong. We are individuals ONLY! We are like leaves blowing in the wind of time. There are no chains that hold us, it is we who hold the chains. We look for answers going from house to house, when the answer is on the open field, in the clouds and the sky, in the depths of the ocean and the expanse of the universe. The answer is within our infinite selves.
Why look for a big object in such small places? And why look for small objects in such big places? Look for the infinite in your heart and you can be everywhere simultaneously. You are the past, the present and the future.
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09-21-2006, 04:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2006, 04:27 PM by Steve Consilvio.)
Perhaps a question to be asked is why does Muhammed scorn the prohet Jesus, and then speak of the dangers of scorning others?
"Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."
Man is always putting his own limitations on God. A Prophet is a prophet, and while God may speak through him that does not mean he is not subject to error.
How much blood has been spilled because of this claim? It is all the dark one needed to confuse the righteous and to sow fear and distrust.
Also, claiming Muhammed as the authority essentially renders God meaningless. God is no longer speaking for himself and making his own decisions. If Jesus is only a prophet, then why woud he describe himself as the Son of God, and be capable of miracles?
How can they both be prophets if they contradict each other? In fact, you have given Muhammed the mantle of "infalibility," which is the same thing that the Popes erroneously claimed. So rather than questioning the concept of trinity (which is okay to question) it seems to me that the bigger thing that needs to be questioned is both the infallibility of Muhammed, and those that think they are infallible in their reading of scripture.
It is God that is all-knowing, not man.
This line of reasoning I am using, recognizing mislogic, is exactly what Socrates used, and what got him in trouble. People cling to a mistaken idea as dearly as they cling to the Truth. Muhammed stated something that he possibly did not know, and the insistence that he is right diverts you away from questioning your own ideas. When Socrates said "the unexamined life is not worth living," he was questioning both his own beliefs as well as the beliefs of others. The fact the trinity is hard to understand does not make it wrong, but the similar claim of infallibilty sheds equal light on how easy it is to be wrong and think oneself correct.
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Peace.....
Now Steve, do you really think others here will get that?
Shamms
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09-21-2006, 04:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2006, 05:00 PM by submit.)
Quote:I don't mind having this discussion, but we have to set up some ground rules first. I say that because it's difficult to try to disprove the doctrine of Trinity using a different book. It's like playing a sport but using two different sets of rules. So, if you'd like to discuss the Trinity from a Biblical standpoint. I'm all for it.
I'll debate you. I'm sure i can win. The trinity is not supported in the Bible anywhere. The issue we will debate:
"Does the Bible say and support and not deny the trinity?"
rules: no insults
noone interpretting. just us two.
I hope you agree to my challenge.
may GOD bless you.
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Peace.......
Sure Submit, we can discuss your question, and I'll allow you to have the floor first. But let me say this. No where in the Bible will you find the term "Trinity". It is a man made construct to describe the principle that the Bible conveys. Now with that said, the floor is yours.
Shamms
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Quote:Peace.......
Sure Submit, we can discuss your question, and I'll allow you to have the floor first. But let me say this. No where in the Bible will you find the term "Trinity". It is a man made construct to describe the principle that the Bible conveys. Now with that said, the floor is yours.
Shamms
Peace be upon you.
You've confused me a great deal. If the trinity is a "a man made construct to describe the principle that the Bible conveys" then there is no point argueing about it, because you've just told me it's made up and is a theory used to describe a principe. Plus it sounds like you don't believe in it, although i might be wrong.
Care to explain your position and beliefs?
may God bless you.
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Quote:Peace be upon you.
You've confused me a great deal. If the trinity is a "a man made construct to describe the principle that the Bible conveys" then there is no point argueing about it, because you've just told me it's made up and is a theory used to describe a principe. Plus it sounds like you don't believe in it, although i might be wrong.
Care to explain your position and beliefs?
may God bless you.
MAshallah-i agree with this statement
Sorry Steve, you've got it all wrong,
Perhaps a question to be asked is why does Muhammed scorn the prohet Jesus, and then speak of the dangers of scorning others?
"Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."
Man is always putting his own limitations on God. A Prophet is a prophet, and while God may speak through him that does not mean he is not subject to error.
How much blood has been spilled because of this claim? It is all the dark one needed to confuse the righteous and to sow fear and distrust.
Also, claiming Muhammed as the authority essentially renders God meaningless. God is no longer speaking for himself and making his own decisions. If Jesus is only a prophet, then why woud he describe himself as the Son of God, and be capable of miracles?
How can they both be prophets if they contradict each other? In fact, you have given Muhammed the mantle of "infalibility," which is the same thing that the Popes erroneously claimed. So rather than questioning the concept of trinity (which is okay to question) it seems to me that the bigger thing that needs to be questioned is both the infallibility of Muhammed, and those that think they are infallible in their reading of scripture.
It is God that is all-knowing, not man.
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Let me make ,my previous statement clear "Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son." Not my statement, but the statement of Allah/God---Muhammed is not the athourity in the Qu'ran, Allah is, sorry to confuse you.
Please note everything in the Qu'ran is the word of God/Allah, now you know---this is what Muslim's believe anyway. Peace and 1 love
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