Pope Benedict on Islam

[voice of reason]

<i>Rather than tackling the challenge of fundamentalist terrorism with a pithy remark packaged for the 9/11 anniversary or reaching for a John Paul-inspired sweeping gesture, the professor Pope went digging into his books. He went so far as to quote a 14th century Byzantine emperor´s hostile view of Islam's founder. "The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."</i>


Obvioulsy, nobody hear is going to agree with that statement. Understandably so. However, rather than just getting angry at it why not offer a rebuttal. The 14th Centry Byzantine emperor and Pope Benedict say that Muhammad brought nothing new that was good. They say that he only brought evil and inhuman things.


So. Where does the Pope err? What did Muhammad bring that was new to the world?

How about a message of peace? I do wonder who started the crusades? I do believe that would be the christians. The Pope and the catholics brought nothing but terror and the inquisitions and forced people into catholicism ie christianity.


By being the world power at the time Rome attacked and forced families into their religion they invaded much of the world FORCING their religion through threat of death if you did not revert from you pagan ways.


Muhammed and the Quran NEVER want to force Islam upon anyone they know it is Allah and Allah alone that brings one to Islam.


By the way curious christian I a "unbeliever" sometimes wrongly marked as an atheist and the negative connotations brought with it.


I can explain atheism if you like from a reasonable point of view, rather than the many irratating people who claim to be "atheists"


You have some learning to do, I suggest reading the Quran to see if Muhammed really had nothing "new" to offer.


Peace to all,


Voice of reason

[radiyah]

Bismillah


I think there is a systematical organized attack against islam since bush started his crusade war, then the cartoons then calling islam fachist ending with the pope statement, and inspite of all that, Islam is spreading more since 9/11 and even before 9/11, and how? was it by sword, I wonder? but it is bush who wants to imply his so called democracy by bombs and invading arab and muslim countries by force, and if u r wise enough u would read the history of eygpt before and after Islam they were tortured by the romans before islam, after Islam they were left to practice their faith freely, and all the lies that say that islam was spread by force and sword are now known to become false.

[AlShamms]

Peace......


There's alot here to respond to but I want to focus on Curious' opinion that what the Catholics do is part of Chrisitan worship....it isn't. No where in the Bible will you read that it is ok to pray to Mary, Joseph, Jude or any other for intercession with God. The only intermediary between God and men is Jesus Christ...period end of story. Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, all of which were pagan practices co-opted by the catholics in an attempt to convert the pagans. For instance read how candles became such an intricate part of catholic worship. You could also try these sources as the Catholic's relationship with pagan practices is well documented for further reference:


The Two Bablyons - Alexander Hislop


Queen of All - Jim Tetlow, Roger Oakland, Brad Myers


There are other resources available if you seriously wish to learn about what you are getting yourself into Curious.


Muslimah you made the comment that >the Pope is the sign of Christianity<. The Pope is no more the sign of Christianity than Castro is the sign for democracy. No, the Pope is the sign of Catholicism, which pratices an apostate version of Christianity (yeah I said it). I might sound like a broken record but I want to impress upon all who read this that the Pope as a person, his office, and the organization that is seated in Rome are engaged in practices not taught in the Bible.


I have to agree with NaSra, it would seem the Pope's time would be better spent cleaning up his own disgraceful house than speaking out about other religions. But such is the way of hypocracy....always wanting to throw rocks but hiding the hand.


Shamms

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam all


Actually, the question of the original poster CC, of what did Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him brought to humanity, in my opinion is irrelevant within the context of this speach. I mean it shouldnt be associated with the excerpt he posted from the Pope's speach.


howeve, to all the posters on this thread, did any of you took the chance to read the full speach? Well, to be honest, till yesterday, I didnt.


I even made my comment only based on the brief posted here.


Then i made a search, it was hard to find the full speach, mostly what came on top of the search results, was the fury reactions, killing of a nun Sobhan Allah.. etc.


http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474


here is a link to the full speach, pls take the time to read it.


sobhan Allah, it will explain much, it will show how much he served Islam, how much he admitted a lot of things that we Muslims take against Nasrania (Christianity).


Insh aAllah when we all read, this might spark fruitful discussions.


Let me get back to the origianl question, good question CC, thank you for asking, giving us Muslim homework to do.


insh a Allah there are a number of good threads here which me and my co mods are planning to organize in order to sort of develop a useful archive on our beloved teacher and Prophet Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam alykom


Shamms, the intention was never to ignore your enlighting info, thank u for adding this to my inof.


BTW which denomination are u following? before I continue.


Well, if u give me the choice, although I respect much the stance of the People's Assembly here in Egypt (= congress) which on a session made a formal request for an apology.


But I d rather would have addressed the pope asking him those who are embracing Islam since I dont know when till the current time, with a large number of priests and monks, who put a sowrd on their neck to do so. To me, the Pope's comment manifests nothing but deep threat. He is threatened.


Yusuf Estes for one, who was a former very active priest, no one forced him to embrace Islam.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Bismillah


salam alykom


Shamms, the intention was never to ignore your enlighting info, thank u for adding this to my inof.


BTW which denomination are u following? before I continue.


Well, if u give me the choice, although I respect much the stance of the People's Assembly here in Egypt (= congress) which on a session made a formal request for an apology.


But I d rather would have addressed the pope asking him those who are embracing Islam since I dont know when till the current time, with a large number of priests and monks, who put a sowrd on their neck to do so. To me, the Pope's comment manifests nothing but deep threat. He is threatened.


Yusuf Estes for one, who was a former very active priest, no one forced him to embrace Islam.

I guess Shamms said before that he/she is an orthodox Christian.


And by the way sister, just little correction from your little brother :) .. Yusuf Estes was a Protestant Preacher, not a priest, because this term used only in the Catholic Church. but i do agree, that he was very active in preaching Christianity, he even hated Muslims and Islam, and yet he accepted Islam under no compulsion, and not only him who embraced Islam, but his wife, his father, daughters, and many of his family members. <b>so where is this invisible sword that we cannot see</b>????

"The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? <b>Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can</b>." <b>Thomas Carlyle</b>

Salam


Wael.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


below is an article written by Dr. Yamin Zakaria regarding the pope's issue:


salam


Wael


------------ ------

<b>Can the ‘Infallible’ Pope Apologise?</b>
Using the terms "jihad" and "holy war", the Pope said: “violence was incompatible with the nature of God", in the speech delivered at Bavaria on 14th September, 2006. How does his view reconcile with the central Christian doctrine of crucifixion, which is based on gruesome violence?


The doctrine claims that Jesus, the only ‘begotten son’ of God was tortured to death in order to redeem the sins of mankind. Commonsense tells us that God has sufficient powers to save his son or anyone from such torment. But he deliberately did not, otherwise there would have no crucifixion. Therefore, the violence inflicted on Jesus was part of the divine scheme, intrinsically linking violence to the central doctrine of Pauline Christianity.


If God permitted such ghastly violence on his own son, then violence could not have been contrary to his nature as suggested by the Pope. It seems that the Pope has overlooked his central religious doctrine from the New Testament that is based on bloodshed. Furthermore, the Old Testament has ample examples of indiscriminate violence, with explicit reference to killing everyone including women and children. “At that time we captured all his towns, and each town we utterly destroyed men, women and children. We left no single survivor." (Deuteronomy 2:31-34). For this reason, the 2nd century Christian theologian, Marcion of Sinope, denounced the Old Testament. His movement at the time rivalled what was to become Catholicism.


In fact, God permits (through free will) violence all the time, as we see it occurring everyday. He also commands us to engage in violence in defence of our lives, property and honour. Furthermore, God also permits/decrees violence (deaths) and destruction in the form of earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, plagues etc and thus how can violence be contrary to God’s nature. The Pope has made a fundamental error in terms of theology because, it is irrational and impossible to try and delve into the nature of God, as the created human beings cannot comprehend its creator, the uncreated. All we can recognise is the existence of God.


Everyone is asking why did the Pope turn a blind eye to the violence perpetrated by the Christians right under his nose? Like the Catholic Tony Blair, he claims that he had divine guidance/inspiratio n to invade and murder Iraqis. Yet the ‘infallible’ Pope did not have the will and the moral courage to actively restrain and oppose the fallible Tony Blair from murdering innocent people in distant lands, after lecturing about how he deplores violence. Likewise, George Bush, also a Christian, claims to have a hotline to God, who apparently ordered Bush to murder Iraqis, Afghanis and anyone else who opposes ‘freedom’ – that is ‘freedom’ of America of course!


Now, how does crucifixion work in terms of guidance for its followers? Because, the notion of killing an innocent man (Jesus) for the crimes of others is diametrically opposed to the natural concept of justice, which dictates that we only punish the guilty party? Pope referred to reason, logic but his fundamental doctrine of crucifixion is irrational.


It could be argued that crucifixion is an example of some kind of human sacrifice that is seen in some of the ancient religions and it is alien to monotheism. In the context of the current political situation, the event could also be viewed as a suicide operation, where Jesus willingly sacrifices himself to clean the sins of mankind! Let us not forget the feminists, who could also argue that if sacrificing a man was sufficient for both genders, than surely woman are lesser being according to the Catholic/Christian doctrine.


The furore was primarily caused by citing the derogatory remarks about Prophet Muhammad (SAW) from the 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus who was debating a Persian intellectual. The emperor said: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". We do not know who the Persian is, or how he responded. Apparently his response is not recorded in that detail. So why did the Pope felt the need to cite a bigoted remark from a source that is incomplete, therefore biased? Does this conform to reason and logic which he refers to in his speech?


The Pope used the derogatory and bigoted remarks of Emperor Manuel to make the case that spreading faith by the sword is wrong. Implying that only Islam endorsed forced conversion and only the Muslims have done this in the past - neither is true. Islam forbids forced conversion and the Muslims have never practiced this in the past. This type of propaganda sounds like the words of a Medieval Pope who waged the bloody crusades and kept Europe in the dark for centuries.


I hope the followers of the Pope will have courage to remind him that it is the Catholic Church (not the Muslims) who has practiced forced conversion for centuries. The obvious example is the brutal Spanish inquisition, when the Jews and the Muslims were indiscriminately slaughtered or expelled or forced to convert to Catholicism, with the direct approval of the Vatican . In Latin America , from the time of the barbaric Conquistadores, forced conversion to Catholicism has been used with mass murder and genocide.


In an attempt to backtrack, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the secretary of the State of Vatican, said that the academic speech was meant as "a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come". In that case why did the Pope not lead by examples, by self-criticising Christianity' s violent past and present before commenting on the other faiths? During the Bosnian war when the Christian Serbs were raping and pillaging the Bosnians for simply being Muslims, the Vatican and the Pope was hypocritically silent. Was that because this sort of violence reminded Pope Benedict of the Medieval Crusades which he secretly desires for?


There are ample other examples of violence emanating from the Christians, and here are some prominent ones: the medieval bloody crusades, persecution of the Jews for centuries, slaughter of million in Latin America, enslaving and colonisation of Africa, brutal Spanish inquisition, the Lebanese Christian’s massacre of the Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, the killing of the Algerians by the French. Yet, the Pope has the audacity to lecture the Muslims or anyone else about violence.


It is well-known that the Vatican collaborated with the Nazis. Adolf Hitler was baptized as a Roman Catholic, he was raised as a Catholic, and later as head of Germany he continued to affirm his Christian faith. Talking about the Nazis, the Pope in his earlier years served the Nazi regime. The official line now is: he was forced to join the Hitler Youth at the age of 14, as was required of young Germans of the time, but he was not an enthusiastic member.


However, we will never know how enthusiastic the Pope was as the Nazis lost the war – if they had won, we would have seen a different Pope Benedict altogether. The inclination towards the Nazis, the absence of a non-European (especially non-White) Pope, the statements of the Pope, and his behavior in entertaining bigots like the Oriana Fallaci, points to the racist nature of the Catholic Church. No wonder Christianity has been Latinised (Europeanised) over the centuries, thus distancing it from its Hebrew roots. He is keen to maintain a racially pure Christian Europe, hence he told the Turks to seek its partnership with the Islamic world and not Europe . No doubt the Vatican will remain white, and its leadership will also remain White European for the foreseeable future.


Eventually, a cosmetic apology was issued from the Vatican . The secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said in a statement on Saturday that the Pope "had absolutely no intention" of presenting Emperor Manuel's opinions on Islam as his own. In that case why did he cite the Emperor’s derogatory statement? The Pope uses his statement to corroborate his own opinion. For him to say now that he is “sorry” if any offense was caused, and have the chutzpah to suggest that Muslims have misunderstood him, is hardly being honest.


If the ‘apology’ was genuine it would presents another dilemma, as words of the Pope are infallible according to the Vatican and the millions of its followers. So how can the infallible Pope even admit to making a mistake and hence apologise, especially to those infidels who are outside the fold of Christianity?


Yamin Zakaria (www.iiop.org)


London, UK


Copyright © Yamin Zakaria 2006

[reepicheep]

> If the ‘apology’ was genuine it would presents another dilemma,


> as words of the Pope are infallible according to the Vatican


> and the millions of its followers.


Wrong. That is not what Catholics believe.


All this article proves is that the writer is grossly ignorant about what the doctrine of "Papal Infallibility" is.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

> If the ‘apology’ was genuine it would presents another dilemma,


> as words of the Pope are infallible according to the Vatican


> and the millions of its followers.


Wrong. That is not what Catholics believe.


All this article proves is that the writer is grossly ignorant about what the doctrine of "Papal Infallibility" is.

Expected comments from you. -_-


Salam


Wael.

[AlShamms]

Peace.....


Muslimah, I am a non-denominational Chrisitan. Which means, I don't ascribe to myself any of the titles men made.


Shamms