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wel_mel_2 · 07-24-2006, 07:50 AM

Bismillah:

To the Christians who want Muslims to believe that Jesus was God.

They normally give 2 reasons to prove that Jesus is God:

1- They say: "When we say Jesus is deity (or even God for that matter), we do not make him the Father! he is one with the Father and therefore HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and:

2- “HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father".

In short, according to them, Jesus is God because He SHARES THE NATURE OF GOD, and HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. 

What is bothered me the most are quotations from the Bible which shows exactly the opposite, i.e that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. and since Christians consider Jesus to be God, am going to add after the name of Jesus in the follow verses the term “GOD” to show whether those verses are really describing the characteristics of the ONE TRUE GOD or the one who was sent by God. i.e man of God or Prophet of God.

1- The Bible tells us that "God" was created from the seed of David:

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ “GOD” our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh."(Romans, 1:3)

2- “God” have ancestors:

"The generations of Jesus Christ “GOD”, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1)

3- “GOD” is male:

"And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child “GOD”, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

4- “God” origin:

"Jesus “GOD” was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1)

5- “God”’s profission:

"Jesus “GOD” was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55)

6- "God" Was the Son of Joseph:

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him,we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth “GOD”, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45)

7- "God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: 

"Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he “GOD” was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42)

8- "God" can do nothing on his own:

"I(Jesus)[b] “GOD”[/b] can of mine own self do nothing."(John, 5:30)

9- "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: 

"And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) “GOD” was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he “GOD” came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he “GOD” came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13)

10- "God" was tempted by Devil for 40 Days: 

"And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he “GOD” was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

These are only 10 points out of thousands in the Bible to prove that Jesus was neither God, nor part of God. and in case any Christian say that he was God, then you should have no problem at all in addressing him as God in the above verses. 

but cant you see what happened?

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 07-24-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:Bismillah:

To the Christians who want Muslims to believe that Jesus was God.

They normally give 2 reasons to prove that Jesus is God:

1- They say: "When we say Jesus is deity (or even God for that matter), we do not make him the Father! he is one with the Father and therefore HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and:

2- “HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father".

In short, according to them, Jesus is God because He SHARES THE NATURE OF GOD, and HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. 

What is bothered me the most are quotations from the Bible which shows exactly the opposite, i.e that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. and since Christians consider Jesus to be God, am going to add after the name of Jesus in the follow verses the term “GOD” to show whether those verses are really describing the characteristics of the ONE TRUE GOD or the one who was sent by God. i.e man of God or Prophet of God.

1- The Bible tells us that "God" was created from the seed of David:

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ “GOD” our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh."(Romans, 1:3)

2- “God” have ancestors:

"The generations of Jesus Christ “GOD”, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1)

3- “GOD” is male:

"And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child “GOD”, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

4- “God” origin:

"Jesus “GOD” was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1)

5- “God”’s profission:

"Jesus “GOD” was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55)

6- "God" Was the Son of Joseph:

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him,we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth “GOD”, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45)

7- "God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: 

"Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he “GOD” was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42)

8- "God" can do nothing on his own:

"I(Jesus)[b] “GOD”[/b] can of mine own self do nothing."(John, 5:30)

9- "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: 

"And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) “GOD” was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he “GOD” came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he “GOD” came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13)

10- "God" was tempted by Devil for 40 Days: 

"And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he “GOD” was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

These are only 10 points out of thousands in the Bible to prove that Jesus was neither God, nor part of God. and in case any Christian say that he was God, then you should have no problem at all in addressing him as God in the above verses. 

but cant you see what happened?

Salam

Wael.

Those are 10 points out of thousands that prove that Jesus was man. There are also plenty that prove that he was God. The Incarnate Jesus was fully man and fully God.

That is clear in the context of scripture and it's been taught and believed by Christians for thousands of years.

If you understand the nature of Jesus being fully man and fully God then the above verses only illustrate half of the nature of Christ.

Jesus has two natures at the same time: divine and human at the same time. He is both God and man (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).

Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).

"He was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and fulfilled all of the Law of God (John 4:34 ; 8:29), even to the point of death (Phil. 2:8).

In His death He bore the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). Thus in the death of Christ the sins of His people were judged (Rom. 3:23-26) and forgotten (Heb. 8:12), and the result of His act of righteousness was eternal life (Rom. 5:18).

Jesus is worshiped - (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6

Jesus is prayed to - (Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2).

Jesus is called God - (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8).

He is the creator (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17); Jesus is uncreated (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17

He is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 8:58 with Exodus 3:14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8).

John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

John 10:30-33, “I and the Father are one. 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

In John 20:27 Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus did not correct Thomas. Four verses later, it says that this is written so you might believe that Jesus is the son of God, (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God.

Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"

Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..." (If Jesus is not God, why does God Himself call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8? )

Col. 1:15-16, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

1 Cor. 1:2, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours."

Right now Jesus is in heaven, still as, and eternally to be both God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Col. 2:9). 

This is important because Jesus is the High Priest forever: "where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” (Heb. 6:20). A spirit cannot be a high priest, only a man can do that. Furthermore, Jesus always lives to make intercession for us "Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them," (Heb. 7:25).

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 07-25-2006, 02:27 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:If you understand the nature of Jesus being fully man and fully God then the above verses only illustrate half of the nature of Christ.

if he is fully God and fully man he should be both AT THE SAME TIME, not half and half, means when he is God, he should be also a human at the sametime. otherwise you are telling me that they are not united, they are separated. which indicate that they are both different and not equal.

Quote:Jesus has two natures at the same time: divine and human at the same time. He is both God and man (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).

That is what you have understood, it only shows your lack of understanding to the term GOD in Greek. I have explained before this point so am not going to repeat myself again. The above verses prove nothing.

Quote:Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).

So what? That would make him God? Adam was created out of nothing, without a father nor mother so he is greater God than Jesus if this is how people think of God. and am not going to mention the very high position of Melchizedek

Quote:"He was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and fulfilled all of the Law of God (John 4:34 ; 8:29), even to the point of death (Phil. 2:8).

Nothing of these verses prove that he is God, all other prophets too fulfilled the law of God perfectly.

Quote:In His death He bore the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). Thus in the death of Christ the sins of His people were judged (Rom. 3:23-26) and forgotten (Heb. 8:12), and the result of His act of righteousness was eternal life (Rom. 5:18).

Again, nothing of these verses proof that he is God.

Quote:Jesus is worshiped - (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
Jesus is prayed to - (Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2).

Jesus is called God - (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8).

The Cow in India is WORSHIPPED, and PRAYED TO, and it is also called God. does this prove anything? NOT AT ALL.

Plus the title GOD was given to many other people in the Bible.

Quote:He is the creator (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17); Jesus is uncreated (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17

The question is, did he say EVER that I am the Creator? Let see what God said in the Bible Ok,

If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God:

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God. 

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God. 

Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel. 

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] none like me, (NONE MEANS NO ONE, MEANS NOT EVEN JESUS)

Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. 

Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. 

So as you can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence

Quote:John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

Refuted before. This don’t proof his divinity at all. I will not repeat what I said before check up the previous posts if you are interested.

Quote:John 10:30-33, “I and the Father are one. 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

Refuted before. This don’t proof his divinity at all. I will not repeat what I said before check up the previous posts if you are interested.

Quote:In John 20:27 Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus did not correct Thomas. Four verses later, it says that this is written so you might believe that Jesus is the son of God, (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God.

The term son of God was given to many other people in the Bible. will you consider them as Gods too? 

As regards to Thomas (by the way, this is how copy and paste sometimes shows that you don’t know your Bible)

The context in no way shows that Jesus blessed the testimony of Thomas for him calling Jesus God. after Jesus' alleged resurrection there were some who doubted that it was him (Matthew 28:17). Apparently Thomas was one of them. He did not believe that Jesus could have resurrected from the dead. He did not even believe the disciples when they told him that they saw Jesus resurrected. So Jesus in order to make Thomas believe that it was him who actually resurrected from the dead had Thomas put his finger in his wound.

Then after that Thomas made the exclamatory remark in verse 28, "My Lord and My God" because he finally recognized and acknowledged that it was truly Jesus that resurrected from the dead. So then Jesus blesses Thomas in verse 29 for finally realizing that it was him who resurrected from the dead.

That is all, plain and simple. Does not proof that he was God.

Why on earth would Thomas call Jesus his God anyways? What is the special thing that Jesus did to prove he was God? His resurrection? But we all believe that we are going to resurrect one day on the Day of Judgment by the will of God. Plus others resurrected...

Matthew 27:52-53

52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Prophets of the Old Testament resurrected people from the dead by the will of God. (2 Kings 4:18-37, 1 Kings 17:17-22 etc.)

Jesus did absolutely nothing special for Thomas to even call him God, so Thomas's remark is best explained as an expression of surprise. 

Other verses you have quoted from Paul am not going to comment on them because you know very well that paul contradicts the teaching of Christ, he never meet him, and those verses were not said by Jesus himself. So I cannot accept them.

we have proven that when the real God is present, we cannot call him Jesus, and when Jesus is present we cannot call him God. otherwise we will have no problem to use their names synonymously, but we have tried as we see in the OP and we have failed.

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · (This post was last modified: 07-25-2006, 12:06 PM by Curious Christian.)

Quote:we have proven...

No. You haven't proven anything.

It's a nice arguement for you if you think about it.

You can take a verse of the bible and plop it out of context and say, "Look here. This proves such and such."

When I have verses that IN CONTEXT shows the truth you say, "OH, I don't believe Jesus said that. That is the part of the bible which was corrupted." Or, the word "Theos" here doesn't mean "God"...even though the same word was used for God the Father many times.

The bottom line is that you reject who the bible says Jesus is. Fine. I guess you should as a good Muslim.

Quote:if he is fully God and fully man he should be both AT THE SAME TIME, not half and half, means when he is God, he should be also a human at the sametime

That is correct. Did I say that he was half and half?

Quote:all other prophets too fulfilled the law of God perfectly.

False. The other prophets did not fullfill the law. The only way the law was filled was by Jesus' blood.

Quote:Again, nothing of these verses proof that he is God

It clearly shows that he did fulfill the law by his sacrifice which covers sin...sound familiar?

Quote:The Cow in India is WORSHIPPED, and PRAYED TO, and it is also called God. does this prove anything? NOT AT ALL.

Oh, I've just read on this very board that Jesus was never worshipped in the bible. The same word for God given to Jesus was also given to God the Father many times throughout scripture.

Quote:The question is, did he say EVER that I am the Creator? Let see what God said in the Bible Ok

Bible clearly states in several places which I've posted before that by Jesus all things were created.

Quote:Refuted before. This don’t proof his divinity at all.

You haven't refuted it. You think you have, but you haven't. The truth cannot be refuted. Was Mohammed present when Abraham was?

Quote:Refuted before. This don’t proof his divinity at all.

Again, you didn't refute a darn tootin thing (like we say in Texas). I guess you would believe that the Jews took up stones to kill him because he said, "God and I are one in purpose."

Quote:Jesus did absolutely nothing special for Thomas to even call him God

I know you don't actually think that Jesus did "nothing special."

wel_mel_2 · 07-26-2006, 12:25 AM

Bismillah:

Last thing I would like to say regarding this topic since am not going to argue over the same topic again because you are repeating yourself, and listening only to yourself. But anyway, since there is not a single unequivocal statement in the Bible where Jesus HIMSELF said I am God or where he say worship me. Then this is enough proof (for me at least) that he is not God.

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 07-26-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:Bismillah:

Last thing I would like to say regarding this topic since am not going to argue over the same topic again because you are repeating yourself, and listening only to yourself. But anyway, since there is not a single unequivocal statement in the Bible where Jesus HIMSELF said I am God or where he say worship me. Then this is enough proof (for me at least) that he is not God.

Salam

Wael.

OK.

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