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Curious Christian · 06-17-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:Bismillah:

am sorry, but those Christians whom you say they are not, also say the same thing about you. they say Jesus is not God and anyone say he is, then he is not a true Christian.

now for people like me, how will i know which one is really 'true' Christian and which is not?

please note that the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Cerinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet of God and NOT AS GOD. Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus (pbuh) as God.

In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read

But what is a messenger of God? Is he not "God's supreme agent" ?. This is indeed what God Himself has already told us in the noble Qur'an 1400 years ago, and exactly what Jesus (pbuh) himself testified to in the Bible:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:3

believe me CC, with every passing day, the most learned among the Christian community are slowly recognizing the truth and drawing closer and closer to Islam. These are not Muslims who issued this statement. These are not "liberal" Christians. These are the most learned and most highly esteemed men of the Anglican Church. These men have dedicated their whole lives to the study of the religion of Jesus, and their study has driven them to the truth which God had already revealed to them in the Qur'an 1400 years ago: That Jesus was not God. That God is not a Trinity. And that the stories of the ministry of Jesus in the Bible have been extensively tampered with by the hands of mankind.

The Church, as Heinz Zahrnt put it "put words into the mouth of Jesus which he never spoke and attributed actions to him which he never performed." One of those who has shown that most of what the church says about Jesus is baseless is Rudolph Augustein in his book "Jesus the Son of Man."

Another very comprehensive study of this matter can be found in the book "The Myth of God Incarnate" which was written by seven theologian scholars in England in 1977 and edited by John Hick. Their conclusion in this matter is that Jesus was "a man approved by God, for a special role within the divine purpose, and..... the later conception of him as God incarnate ... is a mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us." 

ALSO... A University of Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable research into newly found ancient documents concludes that "....

consider the following verses from the Bible which does not talk of any trinity. i also ask you to show me ONE SINGLE verse where it says for example, "hear o people, i am God three i one or three persons" there is NONE CC.

1."Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.

2."Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

3."For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14

4."Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11. (MEANS JESUS IS NOT SAVIOR CC, IT IS ONLY GOD THE FATHER)

5."Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

6."That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6

7."For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:18. (MEANS JESUS IS NOT THE CREATOR AS YOU CLAIMD)

8."Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:22

Now you should begin to ask yourself: If there was no god before or after God Almighty, then how was Jesus (pbuh) "begotten" as a god? The answer is: he was not. He was a mortal man, not a god. We even have the testimony of the majority of today's Anglican Bishopsin defense of this basic truth. If we want the testimony of a trustworthy witness then how much more trustworthy a witness shall we ever find than the majority of the most learned and respected conservative Christians of the Anglican Church?

Salam

Wael.

We just don't see it the same Wel Mel. I've answered those questions already. Your ascertation that there are Christians who say that Christ isn't God is false. They can call themselves "Christians" all they want, but the aren't Christians. The Unitarian church and Jehovah Witness churches are NOT Christian. They may claim Christ but that doesn't make them Christians.

You've said a number of times that "Muslims who don't believe in Jesus aren't Muslims." Well I bet those people would call themselves Muslims wouldn't they?

It's the same for Christianity.

It's the same for the Anglicans. They have clearly strayed from the truth. Going so far as to ordain Gay bishops. They may call themselves Christians all they want, but they aren't.

The "early" churches you spoke of weren't Christian either. The earliest churches were Christian. Read Paul's letters to the early churches.

Curious Christian · 06-17-2006, 03:05 PM

As for Mark 16 is concerned...here several other places where Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father:

Psalm 110

1 The LORD says to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand 

until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet."

2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;

you will rule in the midst of your enemies.

3 Your troops will be willing

on your day of battle.

Arrayed in holy majesty,

from the womb of the dawn

you will receive the dew of your youth.

4 The LORD has sworn

and will not change his mind:

"You are a priest forever,

in the order of Melchizedek."

5 The Lord is at your right hand;

he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.

6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead

and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

7 He will drink from a brook beside the way;

therefore he will lift up his head.

Mathew 22:41-44

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"

"The son of David," they replied.

43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,

44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand 

until I put your enemies

under your feet." '45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Mathew 26

62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mark 12

35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, "How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ[h] is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

" 'The Lord said to my Lord:

 "Sit at my right hand 

until I put your enemies

under your feet." ' 37David himself calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"

Hebrews 1

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son;

today I have become your Father[a]"? Or again,

"I will be his Father,

and he will be my Son"? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him." 7In speaking of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds,

his servants flames of fire." 8But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,

and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10He also says,

"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

11They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end." 13To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand 

until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet"? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

The large crowd listened to him with delight.

wel_mel_2 · 06-18-2006, 04:11 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:As for Mark 16 is concerned...here several other places where Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father:

Psalm 110

1 The LORD says to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand 

until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet."

2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;

you will rule in the midst of your enemies.

3 Your troops will be willing

on your day of battle.

Arrayed in holy majesty,

from the womb of the dawn

you will receive the dew of your youth.

4 The LORD has sworn

and will not change his mind:

"You are a priest forever,

in the order of Melchizedek."

5 The Lord is at your right hand;

he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.

6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead

and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

7 He will drink from a brook beside the way;

therefore he will lift up his head.

Mathew 22:41-44

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"

"The son of David," they replied.

43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,

44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand 

until I put your enemies

under your feet." '45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Mathew 26

62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mark 12

35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, "How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ[h] is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

" 'The Lord said to my Lord:

 "Sit at my right hand 

until I put your enemies

under your feet." ' 37David himself calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"

Hebrews 1

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son;

today I have become your Father[a]"? Or again,

"I will be his Father,

and he will be my Son"? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him." 7In speaking of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds,

his servants flames of fire." 8But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,

and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10He also says,

"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

11They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end." 13To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand 

until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet"? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

The large crowd listened to him with delight.

am sorry CC, i was hoping you answer my post point by point and not just bring up some verses from OT to prove your point. am really not satisfied with the answer. please attend on my post the same way i answer your questions. point by point.

Salam

Wael

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 06-18-2006, 04:18 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:We just don't see it the same Wel Mel. I've answered those questions already. Your ascertation that there are Christians who say that Christ isn't God is false. They can call themselves "Christians" all they want, but the aren't Christians. The Unitarian church and Jehovah Witness churches are NOT Christian. They may claim Christ but that doesn't make them Christians.

You have to support your claims with some evidence CC, you can't just declare that someone is not a Christian without supporting your claims with some proofs. And until now you did not show me any proof that these people are not Christians.

Quote:You've said a number of times that "Muslims who don't believe in Jesus aren't Muslims." Well I bet those people would call themselves Muslims wouldn't they?
It's the same for Christianity.

point out to any single person who is a Muslim and dont believe in Jesus pbuh. you will never find.

Quote:It's the same for the Anglicans. They have clearly strayed from the truth. Going so far as to ordain Gay bishops. They may call themselves Christians all they want, but they aren't.
The "early" churches you spoke of weren't Christian either. The earliest churches were Christian. Read Paul's letters to the early churches.

No proof at all CC. all the verses you have shown me regarding the divinity of Jesus were can be interpreted in many ways. You don’t have one any single verse from the lips of Jesus so explicit and so unambiguous to prove that he was God. NOT AT ALL.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · 06-18-2006, 04:55 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:So...who was a greater prophet? Jesus or Mohammed?

the responsibility which was given to them was different CC, but the message was always same. Jesus was given the commandment to deliver God's message to the children of Israel ONLY but Muhammad was given the same message to deliver it to the whole worlds. Muhammad pbuh responsiblity was more difficult and so was greater than that of Jesus', and he was able by God's help to accomblish his mission and spread Allah's message and that makes him greater than any other soul. he is considered to be the leader and seal of all Prophets. but Muslims are also asked to look upon all other prophets with equal reverence and respect.

one of the reasons of Muhammad's greatness is is his life which considered to be unique among the founders of all other faiths. he was a ruler, an administrative, a soldier and a stateman, a husband and father, he taught about all aspect of life and put the solutions to their problems. social, political, econimic, religous, commercial and cultural etc. such model can be found ONLY in the life of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Lamartine, in his HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277.

Quote:"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Salam

Wael.

reepicheep · 06-18-2006, 04:58 AM

wel_mel_2 wrote:

> You don’t have one any single verse from the lips of Jesus so

> explicit and so unambiguous to prove that he was God. NOT AT ALL.

Quote:(Jesus said) "My Father and I are One."
Once again, the Jews picked up stones to stone him. At this Jesus said to them, "I have set before you many good deeds, done by my Father's power; for which of these would you stone me?"

The Jews replied, "We are not going to stone you for any good deed, but for your blasphemy. You, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 10:30-33

Clearly, the people Jesus was talking to believed he was claiming to be God.

wel_mel_2 · 06-18-2006, 04:58 AM

Bismillah:

this chapter is taken from The 100, a Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History by Michael H. Hart

Quote:MUHAMMAD, No. 1
My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. Of humble origins, Muhammad founded and promulgated one of the world's great religions, and became an immensely effective political leader. Today, thirteen centuries after his death, his influence is still powerful and pervasive. The majority of the persons in this book had the advantage of being born and raised in centers of civilization, highly cultured or politically pivotal nations. Muhammad, however, was born in the year 570, in the city of Mecca, in southern Arabia, at that time a backward area of the world, far from the centers of trade, art, and learning. Orphaned at age six, he was reared in modest surroundings. Islamic tradition tells us that he was illiterate. His economic position improved when, at age twenty-five, he married a wealthy widow. Nevertheless, as he approached forty, there was little outward indication that he was a remarkable person. Most Arabs at that time were pagans, who believed in many gods. There were, however, in Mecca, a small number of Jews and Christians; it was from them no doubt that Muhammad first learned of a single, omnipotent God who ruled the entire universe. When he was forty years old, Muhammad became convinced that this one true God (Allah) was speaking to him, and had chosen him to spread the true faith. For three years, Muhammad preached only to close friends and associates. Then, about 613, he began preaching in public. As he slowly gained converts, the Meccan authorities came to consider him a dangerous nuisance. In 622, fearing for his safety, Muhammad fled to Medina (a city some 200 miles north of Mecca), where he had been offered a position of considerable political power. This flight, called the Hegira, was the turning point of the Prophet's life. In Mecca, he had had few followers. In Medina, he had many more, and he soon acquired an influence that made him a virtual dictator. During the next few years, while Muhammad's following grew rapidly, a series of battles were fought between Medina and Mecca. This was ended in 630 with Muhammad's triumphant return to Mecca as conqueror. The remaining two and one-half years of his life witnessed the rapid conversion of the Arab tribes to the new religion.

When Muhammad died, in 632, he was the effective ruler of all of southern Arabia. The Bedouin tribesmen of Arabia had a reputation as fierce warriors. But their number was small; and plagued by disunity and internecine warfare, they had been no match for the larger armies of the kingdoms in the settled agricultural areas to the north. However, unified by Muhammad for the first time in history, and inspired by their fervent belief in the one true God, these small Arab armies now embarked upon one of the most astonishing series of conquests in human history. To the northeast of Arabia lay the large Neo-Persian Empire of the Sassanids; to the northwest lay the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman Empire, centered in Constantinople. Numerically, the Arabs were no match for their opponents. On the field of battle, though, the inspired Arabs rapidly conquered all of Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine. By 642, Egypt had been wrested from the Byzantine Empire, while the Persian armies had been crushed at the key battles of Qadisiya in 637, and Nehavend in 642. But even these enormous conquests, which were made under the leadership of Muhammad's close friends and immediate successors, Ali, Abu Bakr and 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, did not mark the end of the Arab advance. By 711, the Arab armies had swept completely across North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean There they turned north and, crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, overwhelmed the Visigothic kingdom in Spain.

For a while, it must have seemed that the Moslems would overwhelm all of Christian Europe. However, in 732, at the famous Battle of Tours, a Moslem army, which had advanced into the center of France, was at last defeated by the Franks. Nevertheless, in a scant century of fighting, these Bedouin tribesmen, inspired by the word of the Prophet, had carved out an empire stretching from the borders of India to the Atlantic Ocean-the largest empire that the world had yet seen. And everywhere that the armies conquered, large-scale conversion to the new faith eventually followed. Now, not all of these conquests proved permanent. The Persians, though they have remained faithful to the religion of the Prophet, have since regained their independence from the Arabs. And in Spain, more than seven centuries of warfare, finally resulted in the Christians reconquering the entire peninsula. However, Mesopotamia and Egypt, the two cradles of ancient civilization, have remained Moslem, as has the entire coast of North Africa. The new religion, of course, continued to spread, in the intervening centuries, far beyond the borders of the original Moslem conquests. Currently it has tens of millions of adherents in Africa and Central Asia and even more in Pakistan and northern India, and in Indonesia. In Indonesia, the new faith has been a unifying factor. In the Indian subcontinent, however, the conflict between Moslems and Hindus is still a major obstacle to unity.

How, then, is one to assess the overall impact of Muhammad on human history? Like all religions, Islam exerts an enormous influence upon the lives of its followers. It is for this reason that the founders of the world's great religions all figure prominently in this book. Since there are roughly twice as many Christians as Moslems in the world, it may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament. Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition, he played the key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam. Moreover, he is the author of the Moslem holy scriptures, the Koran, a collection of certain of Muhammad's insights that he believed had been directly revealed to him by Allah. Most of these utterances were copied more or less faithfully during Muhammad's lifetime and were collected together in authoritative form not long after his death. The Koran therefore, closely represents Muhammad's ideas and teachings and to a considerable extent his exact words. No such detailed compilation of the teachings of Christ has survived. Since the Koran is at least as important to Moslems as the Bible is to Christians, the influence of Muhammad through the medium of the Koran has been enormous. It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity.

On the purely religious level, then, it seems likely that Muhammad has been as influential in human history as Jesus. Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time. Of many important historical events, one might say that they were inevitable and would have occurred even without the particular political leader who guided them. For example, the South American colonies would probably have won their independence from Spain even if Simon Bolivar had never lived. But this cannot be said of the Arab conquests. Nothing similar had occurred before Muhammad, and there is no reason to believe that the conquests would have been achieved without him. The only comparable conquests in human history are those of the Mongols in the thirteenth century, which were primarily due to the influence of Genghis Khan. These conquests, however, though more extensive than those of the Arabs, did not prove permanent, and today the only areas occupied by the Mongols are those that they held prior to the time of Genghis Khan. It is far different with the conquests of the Arabs. From Iraq to Morocco, there extends a whole chain of Moslem nations united not merely by their faith in Islam, but also by their Arabic language, history, and culture.

The centrality of the Koran in the Moslem religion and the fact that it is written in Arabic have probably prevented the Arab language from breaking up into mutually unintelligible dialects, which might otherwise have occurred in the intervening thirteen centuries. Differences and divisions between these Arab states exist, of course, and they are considerable, but the partial disunity should not blind us to the important elements of unity that have continued to exist. For instance, neither Iran nor Indonesia, both oil-producing states and both Islamic in religion joined in the oil embargo of the winter of 1973-74. It is no coincidence that all of the Arab states, and only the Arab states, participated in the embargo. We see, then, that the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

wel_mel_2 · 06-18-2006, 05:33 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:wel_mel_2 wrote:

> You don’t have one any single verse from the lips of Jesus so

> explicit and so unambiguous to prove that he was God. NOT AT ALL.

Clearly, the people Jesus was talking to believed he was claiming to be God.

Again the word ONE used here in the Greek translation does not mean ONE IN ESSENCE OR NATURE. Or else you will have a problem regarding the same word ONE when Jesus include his father and his disciples and said that all of them are ONE.

"That they all may be one as thou. Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us..."

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one..."(John 17:20-22)

to complete the verses for better understanding, we read:

31. "Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,"

32. "but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33. "The Jews answered him, saying : 'For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself a God.'" (John 10:31-33).

In verse 24 above the Jews falsely alleged that Jesus was talking ambiguously. When that charge was ably refuted, they then accused him of blasphemy which is like treason in the spiritual realm. So they say that Jesus is claiming to be God "I and the Father are one". The Christians agree with the Jews in this that Jesus did make such a claim; but differ in that it was not blasphemy because the Christians say that he was God and was entitled to own up to his Divinity.

The Christians and the Jews are both agreed that the utterance is serious. To one as an excuse for good "redemption", and to the other as an excuse for good "riddance". Between the two, let the poor Jesus die. But Jesus refuses to co-operate in this game, so:

34. "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?" 

35. "If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came --and the Scripture cannot be broken--," 

36. "what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'?" (John 10:34-36).

He is a bit sarcastic in verse 34, but in any event, why does he say: "Your Law"? Is it not also his Law? Didn't he say: "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law of the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill (the Law). For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one Jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:1718).

"You are gods:" He is obviously quoting from the 82nd Psalm , verse 6, "I have said, ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the most High."

Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, meaning that the prophets of God were called 'gods' and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in other words he is saying: "you can't contradict me!" Jesus knows his Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies that: "If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as 'gods' in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself is far inferior in our language, viz. 'A son of God' as against others being called 'gods' by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself as 'god' in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no fault with me." This is the plain reading of Christian Scripture. I am giving no interpretations of my own or some esoteric meaning to words!

Salam

Wael.

BASED ON THE WORK OF AHMED DEEDAT.

reepicheep · 06-18-2006, 06:03 AM

When Jesus said "the Father and I are one", the people Jesus was talking to believed he was claiming to be God.

wel_mel_2 · 06-18-2006, 06:12 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:When Jesus said "the Father and I are one", the people Jesus was talking to believed he was claiming to be God.

you didn’t read my post? This is what they thought. But he clarifies later. Please read my last post with concentration.

Salam

Wael.

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