Read the Bible for "Guidance and Light"?

[Curious Christian]

Muslimah wrote:


> Question, u mean that preserving the holy book is not the


> duty of God but rather the holy spirit? who revealed it then?


Christians believe that the Holy Spirit IS God.


Remember, Christians believe in the Trinity (three Gods in one and one God in three). Each part of the Trinity has different responsibilities. The Holy Spirit (for example) can be thought of as the direct interface between God and humanity. So Christians believe, then, that God (the Holy Spirit) was present in the people who recorded and preserved the bible.

Yes Muslimah. When way say Jesus, God the Father or the Holy Spirit it's all the same God.


I started a thread titled, "Good defense of the Trinity"

[wel_mel_2]

Good. You have expressed a rational, coherent thought which I can respond to, and which we can then discuss.


Let's take, as an example, the first part of surah 4:11 from the koran:


the Yusuf Ali translation reads:


> Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's


> (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that


> of two females: if only daughters, two or more,



the Pickthal translation reads:


> Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for)


> your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion


> of two females, and if there be women more than two,



you are playing games huh... OK :)


YUSUF ALI said 2 <b>or</b> more... which can be <b>more</b> than 2 as pickthal rightly said:


now let us compare that with the Bible.... for example.


The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest Version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "apocrypha" i.e. of DOUBTFUL AUTHORITY. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":


". . . If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book."


(Revelation 22:18-19)


<b>But who cares! </b> The Protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their <b>Book of God</b>! The outcasts are:


The Book of Judith


The Book of Tobias


The Book of Baruch


The Buck of Esther, etc.


Now let us see the protestant Bible.


"King James Version (KJV)".


"THE AUTHORISED VERSION OF THE BIBLE WAS PUBLISHED IN 1611 <b>BY THE WILL AND COMMAND OF HIS MAJESTY KING JAMES THE 1ST WHOSE NAME IT BEARS TILL TODAY." </b>


The Roman Catholics, believing as they do that the Protestants have mutilated the Book of God, are yet aiding and abetting the Protestant "crime" by forcing their native converts to purchase the Authorised Version (AV) of the Bible, which is the only Bible available in some 1500 languages of the lesser developed nations of the world. The Roman Catholics milk their cows, but the feeding is left to the Protestants! The overwhelming majority of Christians — both Catholics and Protestant — use the Authorised (AV) or the King James Version (KJV) as it is alternatively called.


First published, as Sir Winston says, in 1611, and then revised in 1881 (RV), and now <b>re-revised </b> and brought up to date as the Revised Standard Version (RSV) 1952, and now again <b>re-re-revised </b> in 1971 (still RSV for short). Let us see what opinion Christendom has of this most revised Bible, the RSV:-


1. "THE FINEST VERSION WHICH HAS BEEN PRODUCED IN THE PRESENT CENTURY." — (Church of England Newspaper)


2. "A COMPLETELY FRESH TRANSLATION BY SCHOLARS OF THE HIGHEST EMINENCE." — (Times literary Supplement)


3. "THE WELL-LOVED CHARACTERISTICS OF THE AUTHORISED VERSION COMBINED WITH A NEW ACCURACY OF TRANSLATION." — (Life and Work)


4. "THE MOST ACCURATE AND CLOSE RENDERING OF THE ORIGINAL" — (The Times)


The publishers (Collins) themselves, in their notes on the Bible at the end of their production, say on page 10: "<b>THIS BIBLE (RSV), IS THE PRODUCT OF THIRTY-TWO SCHOLARS, ASSISTED BY AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPRESENTING FIFTY CO-OPERATING DENOMINATIONS." </b> Why all this boasting? To make the gullible public buy their product? All these testimonies convince the purchaser that he is backing the right horse, with the purchaser little suspecting that he is being taken for a ride.


But what about the Authorised Version of the Bible (AV), the "World's Best Seller?" These Revisers, all good salesmen, have some very pretty things to say about it. However, their page iii, paragraph six of the PREFACE of the RSV reads;


<b>"THE KING JAMES VERSION (alternative description of AV) HAS WITH GOOD REASON BEEN TERMED 'THE NOBLEST MONUMENT OF ENGLISH PROSE.’ ITS REVISERS IN 1881 EXPRESSED ADMIRATION FOR 'ITS SIMPLICITY, ITS DIGNITY, ITS POWER, ITS HAPPY TURNS OF EXPRESSION ... THE MUSIC OF ITS CADENCES, AND THE FELICITIES OF ITS RHYTHM.’ IT ENTERED, AS NO OTHER BOOK HAS, INTO THE MAKING OF THE PERSONAL CHARACTER AND THE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS OF THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING PEOPLES. WE OWE TO IT AN INCALCULABLE DEBT." </b>


Can you magine a more magnificent tribute being paid to the "Book of Books" than the above? Let see what else they say.


<b>"YET THE KING JAMES VERSION HAS GRAVE DEFECTS." And, "THAT THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS AS TO CALL FOR REVISION</b> . . ." This is th mouths of 32 scholars of "the highest eminence."


no sect among Christianity will accept to use the Bible of another sect. call the "Born again" people and ask them to read your Bible they will say THE ONLY BIBLE THAT CONTAINS GOD'S WORDS IS THE KING JAMES VERSIONS. ALL OTHER VERSIONS ARE CORRUPTED. they dont even believe in the NEW KING JAMES VERSION.


so dont try to hide the truth. we dont force you to accept Islam, but at least admit that you have a problem with the Bible as which one is "God's Word"


as of us, we can very well read both Yusuf Ali and Pickthal... AND we have the Arabic original text as well.


Salam


Wael

[Curious Christian]

Wel Mel..


I've never heard that Protestants only accept the King James Version like you said and I am "born again."


And, all believers in Christ are "born again" including Catholics.


John 3


<i>1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”</i>


3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”


4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”


5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”


10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

[wel_mel_2]

Wel Mel..


I've never heard that Protestants only accept the King James Version like you said and I am "born again."

i dont know which branch of 'born again' you are belongs to??? there are MANY.


i can show you some 'born agains' websites who strongly condemn all the Bibles except the KJV.

And, all believers in Christ are "born again" including Catholics.

i know this argument, this is different. am talking about those who make sect out of Christianity and call it BORN AGAIN.


anyway, i would like to follow the advise of Sister Muslimah and stick to the original topic. we can start another thread about the Bible versions.


Salam


Wael.

[wel_mel_2]

Muslimah wrote:


> Question, u mean that preserving the holy book is not the


> duty of God but rather the holy spirit? who revealed it then?


Christians believe that the Holy Spirit IS God.


Remember, Christians believe in the Trinity (three Gods in one and one God in three). Each part of the Trinity has different responsibilities. The Holy Spirit (for example) can be thought of as the direct interface between God and humanity. So Christians believe, then, that God (the Holy Spirit) was present in the people who recorded and preserved the bible.

Just for your information.

".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development"

. "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.
<b>They admit it! Jesus' twelve apostles lived and died never having heard of any "Trinity"! </b>


Did Jesus leave his closest and dearest followers so completely and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the "true" nature of God? Did he leave them in such black darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children's children would ever come to recognize the "true" nature of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece together the nature of the One whom they are to worship? Why did Jesus never, even once, just say "God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"? If he had only chosen to make just one such explicit statement to them he could have relieved Christianity of centuries of bitter disputes, division, and animosity.


Salam


Wael.

[Curious Christian]

Just for your information.


. "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.


<b>They admit it! Jesus' twelve apostles lived and died never having heard of any "Trinity"! </b>


Did Jesus leave his closest and dearest followers so completely and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the "true" nature of God? Did he leave them in such black darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children's children would ever come to recognize the "true" nature of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece together the nature of the One whom they are to worship? Why did Jesus never, even once, just say "God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"? If he had only chosen to make just one such explicit statement to them he could have relieved Christianity of centuries of bitter disputes, division, and animosity.


Salam


Wael.

Thread that I started about this very subject


<b>"God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"?</b>


There you go again. Just because it isn't recorded that Jesus said it exactly like that in those words doesn't mean it's not true.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Thread that I started about this very subject


<b>"God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"?</b>


There you go again. Just because it isn't recorded that Jesus said it exactly like that in those words doesn't mean it's not true.

believe me i know your view point. i just cannot accept this concept. or i cannot understand it at all.


Salam


Wael.

[PUPPET]

<b></b>


"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.


" (Quran:4/171


The Question is simple: Has man changed the Injeel as revelad to ISA.


Close ended question YEs or no.

[Curious Christian]

<b></b>


"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.


" (Quran:4/171


The Question is simple: Has man changed the Injeel as revelad to ISA.


Close ended question YEs or no.

That verse above demonstrates that Mohammed was confussed about the nature of the Trinity himself. He thought it was Jesus, God the Father and Mary????

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

That verse above demonstrates that Mohammed was confussed about the nature of the Trinity himself. He thought it was Jesus, God the Father and Mary????

there are 2 things to understand from this verse.


1- Christ Jesus the son of Mary was <b>(no more than) a messenger of Allah</b>, <b>and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary</b>, <b>and a spirit proceeding from Him</b>.. which means he is not God as some Christians said.


2- command from God Almighty to those who said that God is one in three to stop such thing. and believe in ONE PERFECT GOD. ONE ONLY NOT ONE IN THREE OR THREE IN ONE.


there is nothing to do with Mary being included in the Trinity here.


we understand from the verse in general that we should not worship any of God's creation, including Jesus and Mary. We must not assign any of God's creation His divine attributes and characteristics. "He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. <b>All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."</b> (Qur'an 59:24).


Salam


Wael.