some points concerning science and the Bible

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Wel Mel,
You said,


"One error is sufficient to prove that the whole Bible is not God's word."

yes i siad and i insist.

Ok. I can say the same thing about the Qur'an and completely dismiss it.

yes you can say, but you cannot really porove what you say. am aware of some websites that promote some allegation about the Qur'an and science. and i already told you that. they are either quoting out of context or twisting the translations etc.. i already wa

Do ants talk? Because the Qur'an says that Soloman talked to ants. To borrow a phrase of yours that is "unscientific."

I already mentioned in one of my posts that there is a different between miracles and science. This is a miracle which no scientist can prove or disprove.

Did you comment on the embryo problem? The evidence that the embryo knowledge was known and published before the Qur'an was written?

am coming to that dont worry.


Salam


Wael

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

John 1


1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.


<i>3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.</i> 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.


6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.<b> </b>


<i>10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.</i>


<i>14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.</i>


15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Of course this is the natural answer of all Christians that I met in my life.


"Where does Jesus say: 'I am God,' or 'I am equal to God,' or 'Worship me'?" the answer is John 1:1.


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


First please note, these are not the words of Jesus. They are the words of John (or whoever wrote them). Acknowledged by every erudite Christian scholar of the Bible as being the words of another Jew, Philo of Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born. And Philo claimed no divine inspiration for them. No matter what mystical meaning that Philo had woven around these words (which our John has plagiarized), we will accept them for what they are worth.


Here we go.


Since the manuscripts of the 27 Books of the New Testament are in Greek, a Christian sect has produced its own version and has even changed the name of this selection of 27 Books to Christian Greek Scriptures ! so I would like to ask you CC whether or not you know Greek? If you know then could you please let me know whether you have any idea about the Greek word for "God" which appeared John 1:1"and the Word was With God"?


Ok if you don’t know please check with me whether am wrong or right.


the word was <b>Hotheos</b>, which literally means "The God".


Since the European (including the North American) has evolved a system of using capital letters to start a proper noun and small letters for common nouns, we would accept his giving a capital "G" for God; in other words Hotheos is rendered "the god" which in turn is rendered "God".


"Now tell me, what is the Greek word for "God" in the second occurrence in your quotation - "and the Word was <b>God</b>"? "the word was <b>Tontheos</b>, which means "a god".


According to your own system of translating you aught to have spelt this word 'God' a second time with a small 'g' i.e. 'god', and not 'God' with a capital 'G'; in other words Tontheos is rendered "a god". Both of these, "god" or "a god" are correct.


"But in 2 Corinthians 4:4 you have reversed your system by using a small 'g' when spelling 'God' "(and the devil is) the god of this world." The Greek word for "the god" is Hotheos the same as in John 1:1. "Why have you not been consistent in your translations?" "If Paul was inspired to write hotheos the God for the Devil, why don't you use that capital 'G'?"


And in the Old Testament, the Lord said unto Moses: "See, I have made thee a god to Pharoah" (Exodus 7:1). "Why do you use a small 'g' for 'God' when referring to Moses instead of a capital 'G' as you do for a mere word 'Word' - "and the Word was God."?


"Why do you do this? Why do you play fast and loose with the Word of God?" ( am not asking you personally huh). but I am talking about the vested interests of Christianity, who are hell-bent to deify Christ, by using capital letters here and small letters there, to deceive the unwary masses who think that every letter, every comma and full stop and the capital and small letters were dictated by God (Capital 'G' here!)."


Salam


wael.

[Curious Christian]

So that I can be exact with the references I will answer this when I have my Bible with me. I am currently just turning on my computer for another great day at work!

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

So that I can be exact with the references I will answer this when I have my Bible with me. I am currently just turning on my computer for another great day at work!

take your time CC.


Salam


wael.

[Curious Christian]

Bismillah:


take your time CC.


Salam


wael.

I just spent about 2 hours responding to your post. I hit, "Submit" and the website took me to a page to enter in my username and password and then I lost all that I had written.


It's late and I need to sleep.


I will redo all that I did tomorrow.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

I just spent about 2 hours responding to your post. I hit, "Submit" and the website took me to a page to enter in my username and password and then I lost all that I had written.


It's late and I need to sleep.


I will redo all that I did tomorrow.

its ok, no problem insha'Allah.


Salam


wael.

[Curious Christian]

"Why do you do this? Why do you play fast and loose with the Word of God?" ( am not asking you personally huh). but I am talking about the vested interests of Christianity, who are hell-bent to deify Christ, by using capital letters here and small letters there, to deceive the unwary masses who think that every letter, every comma and full stop and the capital and small letters were dictated by God (Capital 'G' here!)."


Salam


wael.

<b>OK Wel Mel...I am going to try again. </b>


I've heard the "a god" vs. "God" arguement before concerning the Logos in John 1.


Some have observed that the word "God" here has no definite article, and argued on this basis that it means "a god" rather than "God". This is incorrect. The article is omitted because of the word order in the Greek sentence (the predicate "God" has been placed first for emphasis thus in Greek grammar not requiring the definate article). The NT never endorses the idea of "a god," an expression that implies polytheism and is in sharp contrast with the consistent teaching of monotheism of the Bible. In the NT, the Greek word for "God" occurs often without the definite article, depending on the requirements of Greek grammar.


You original question, however, was about Jesus being the Creator. You wanted to know where the Bible states that Jesus created the earth and the heavens? I gave you John 1. I can give you more...


Col. 1:16-17



15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


John 17:1-5



1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Heb. 1:2



1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.


You has also made the remark that nowhere Christ calls himself God and thus Christians shouldn't deify Christ.


John 8:57-59



The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.


Remember God the Father saying to Moses in Exodus 3 when Moses asked what to call Him?


Exodus 3:14-13



13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"


14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'


John 10:30-33



"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


There are many examples of Christ accpeting deity in the NT. For starters Christ forgave sins. This angered the Jews to the point that they killed Him. Why did it anger them so? For they knew that only God could forgive sins. (See OT sacrficial requirements)


Mathew 9: 1-7



1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."


3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"


4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home.


I've noticed you like to ask questions such as, "Show me where the Bible says that 'Jesus is the Creator' in plain English exactly in those words." I guess you think that if those words aren't in the Bible exactly as you've laid them out than it must not be true that Jesus is the Creator? Well that is a false arguement. I could do the same thing about the Qur'an but that doesn't make the Qur'an false does it?


For Example, what if I said, "Show me in the Qur'an exactly where it says this exactly in plain English all in once sentence, 'Mohammed is God's best and complete prophet, he is 100% correct on everything and this Qur'an makes the Bible null and void and Christians changed the words of Jesus to make it look like he was God when in fact Jesus was just a lesser prophet.'


Well if you couldn't produce that exact sentence than I guess I am supposed to assume that the sentence in incorrect? No.


I take the Bible as a whole and in context just as you take the Qur'an as a whole and in context. For me to offer any answer any question about Christ I would take liberty to use the Bible as a whole because it was given to man as a whole. I'd expect you to do the same with your Qur'an.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

<b>OK Wel Mel...I am going to try again. </b>


I've heard the "a god" vs. "God" arguement before concerning the Logos in John 1.


Some have observed that the word "God" here has no definite article, and argued on this basis that it means "a god" rather than "God". This is incorrect. The article is omitted because of the word order in the Greek sentence (the predicate "God" has been placed first for emphasis thus in Greek grammar not requiring the definate article). The NT never endorses the idea of "a god," an expression that implies polytheism and is in sharp contrast with the consistent teaching of monotheism of the Bible. In the NT, the Greek word for "God" occurs often without the definite article, depending on the requirements of Greek grammar.


You original question, however, was about Jesus being the Creator. You wanted to know where the Bible states that Jesus created the earth and the heavens? I gave you John 1. I can give you more...


Col. 1:16-17



15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


John 17:1-5



1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Heb. 1:2



1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.


You has also made the remark that nowhere Christ calls himself God and thus Christians shouldn't deify Christ.


John 8:57-59



The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.


Remember God the Father saying to Moses in Exodus 3 when Moses asked what to call Him?


Exodus 3:14-13



13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"


14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'


John 10:30-33



"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


There are many examples of Christ accpeting deity in the NT. For starters Christ forgave sins. This angered the Jews to the point that they killed Him. Why did it anger them so? For they knew that only God could forgive sins. (See OT sacrficial requirements)


Mathew 9: 1-7



1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."


3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"


4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home.


I've noticed you like to ask questions such as, "Show me where the Bible says that 'Jesus is the Creator' in plain English exactly in those words." I guess you think that if those words aren't in the Bible exactly as you've laid them out than it must not be true that Jesus is the Creator? Well that is a false arguement. I could do the same thing about the Qur'an but that doesn't make the Qur'an false does it?


For Example, what if I said, "Show me in the Qur'an exactly where it says this exactly in plain English all in once sentence, 'Mohammed is God's best and complete prophet, he is 100% correct on everything and this Qur'an makes the Bible null and void and Christians changed the words of Jesus to make it look like he was God when in fact Jesus was just a lesser prophet.'


Well if you couldn't produce that exact sentence than I guess I am supposed to assume that the sentence in incorrect? No.


I take the Bible as a whole and in context just as you take the Qur'an as a whole and in context. For me to offer any answer any question about Christ I would take liberty to use the Bible as a whole because it was given to man as a whole. I'd expect you to do the same with your Qur'an.

Ok thanks for explanation


salam


Wael