Bismillah:
Quote:Wel Mel. Respectfully I think that we are coming to a wall in our little debate.
You've shown a tendency to throw words around like "science" and "miracle" when it suits you.
When something in the Qur'an is blatently "unscientific" you say that its a "miracle" and that I am confused for not knowing the difference.
When something in the Bible is a "miracle" you say "no...it can't be, that is unscientific."
Did I say anything regarding miracles in the Bible to be scientific or unscientific? Where did I say that?
Quote:So when it suits your arugement you interchange those words with ease and thus profess the Qur'an to be true and the Bible to be false.
Don't you see Wel Mel? The creation itself is a miracle. God creating the world and heavens in 6 literal days is a miracle. I am not going to subject the miracles of God's glory to flawed human science just like you don't subject the topic of "talking ants" to science. You brush it off and call it a "miracle" and state that "no scientist can prove or disprove it." I guess this discussion is convenient for you since you think you have the authority to decide what is "miracle" and what is "unscientific."
The creation is a miracle indeed. But this miracle can never take place in 6 literal days as proved by science. There are hundreds of opinions of scientists about this matter. Almost all of them have no objection if those 6 days are considered to be long period and not 24 hours day. The miracle can take place but since scientists discovered this fact then we have to believe scientists and to believe in God that he would never make such mistake in His holy book if He was the Creator. I hope you get my point, am not playing with words or anything. If you can show me a single scientist who has anything to say about “talking ant” please show me. All what you show me were from anti Islamic websites who spread wrong information about Islam. Like this coming point now. Here we go.
Quote:The Qur'an says that the Sun sets in a muddy spring. I guess that must be a miracle and not unscientific huh?
I hope that you are seeking answers anyway . Insha’Allah.
The Arabic word used here is <b>'wajada' </b> meaning, <b>‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’</b> So Allah is describing <b>what appeared to Zulqarnain</b>. If I make a statement that… ‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ And you say… ‘Oh Wael said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5. I did not say. I am telling ‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ I am not wrong - The student is wrong. There are various ways to try and analyze this verse. One is this way - according to Muhammad Asad, that 'wajada' means… ‘It appeared to’… ‘It appeared to Zulqarnain.’ Point no.2 - The Arabic word used is 'Magrib' - It can be used for time, as well as place. When we say ‘sunset’ – ‘sunset’ can be taken for time. If I say… ‘The sun sets at 7 p.m.’; I am using it for time. If I say… ‘The ‘Sun sets in the West’, it means I am taking it for place. So here if we use the word 'Magrib' for time. So Zulqarnain did not reach that place of sunset - used - as time - He reached at the time of sun set. The problem is solved. Further more, you can solve them in various ways. Even if you says ‘No No, the basic assumption is too much - It is not… ‘Appeared to’… it is actually this.’ Let us analyze it further. The Qur'anic verse says… the Sun set in murky water.’ Now we know, when we use these words, like ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’ - does the sunrise? Scientifically, sun does not rise - neither does the sunset. We know scientifically, that the sun does not set at all. It is the rotation of the earth, which gives rise to sunrise and sunset. But yet you read in the everyday papers mentioning, sunrise at 6 a.m. sun sets at 7.00 p.m. Oh! The newspapers are wrong – Unscientific!’ If I use the word ‘Disaster’, Oh! There is a disaster’ – ‘Disaster’ means there is some calamity which has taken place. Literally, ‘disaster’ means ‘an evil star.’ So when I say… ‘This disaster’ every one knows what I mean is ‘a calamity’, not about the evil star.’. when a person who is mad, we call him a lunatic ’ What is the meaning of ‘lunatic’? It means… ‘struck by the moon’ - But that is how the language has evolved. Similarly sun rise, is actually, it is just a usage of words. And Allah has given the guidance for the human beings also - He uses so, that we understand. So it is just ‘sunset’ - Not that it is actually setting - Not that sun is actually rising. So this explanation clearly gives us a clear picture, that the Verse of the Qur’an of Chapter.18, Verse No 86, is not in contradiction with established science - That is the way how people speak.
Quote:Qur'an 67 states that stars were created by Allah to throw at devils. I guess you'll say that that too is a "miracle" and has nothing to do with science?
this is again amongst the many verses in the Qur’an that scientists didn’t approve neither do they approve. It is among the unknown portion of the Qur’anic statement related to science. What I was showing you or discussing is the scientific issues <b>that has been established</b>. Not hypothesis or theories that based on assumption without proof.
Quote:Qur'an 15 says that the earth is flat like a carpet.
again, this is due to your very limited information about Islam.
<b>Nowhere does the Qur’an say that the earth is flat</b>. But I know which verse you are talking about.
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." [71:19]
But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:
"That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads." [ 71:20]
A similar message is repeated
"He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)...." [ 20:53]
The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
<b>Not a single verse of the Qur’an says that the earth is flat</b>. The Qur’an only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.
Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Qur’an describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Qur’an is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.
Similarly, the Qur’an says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.
"And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!" [51:48]
Similarly the Qur’an also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:
"Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse" "And the mountains as pegs?" [78:6-7]
None of these verses of the Qur’an contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Glorious Qur’an says:
"O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!" [29:56]
Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse: "And we have made the earth egg shaped". [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.
Thus the Qur’an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.
Quote:He goes on to say that Mountains hold down the earth so that it doesn't shake in Qur'an 78. I guess too that this must be a "miracle."
So what is your point? it is also approved by science that mountains are made to give stability to the earth. What is your point here?
Quote:I could go further and throw up all the Mathamatical errors which appear in the Qur'an such as the old 1,000 years or 50,000 years debate which I am sure you are familiar with but I am sure you'll have a long winded nonsensical explanation for that too.
Am not going to comment on<i> ‘nonsensical explanation”</i> thing that you have mentioned, because I will be asked on the last day if I answer your questions or not. So I choose to answer insha’Allah.
Yes am aware of 1000, days and 50,000 days. And here is the answer. Hope you read it so you can understand.
The Qur’an says in two verses, (22:47 and 32:5), that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. In another verse (70:4) it says that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 50,000 years of our reckoning.
These verses generally mean that the time of Allah is incomparable to the earthly time. The examples given are of one thousand years and fifty thousand years of the earthly time. In other words thousands of years or a very, very long time of the earth a day in the sight of Allah is equal to:
The Arabic word used in all these three verses is yaum, which, besides meaning a day also means a long period, or an epoch. If you translate the word yaum correctly as ‘period’ there will be no confusion.
a) The verse from Surah Hajj reads as:
"Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! but Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning". [Al-Qur’an 22:47]
When the unbelievers asked to hasten the punishment the Qur’an says Allah will not fail in His promise.<b> Verily a period in the sight of Allah is like a thousand years of your reckoning.</b>
B) The verse from Surah Al-Sajdah says:
"He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up? To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning".[Al-Qur’an 32:5]
This verse indicates that <b>a period required for all the affairs to go up to Allah , is a thousand years of our reckoning.</b>
c) A verse from Surah Al-Maarij says:
"The angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years".
[Al-Qur’an 70:4]
This verse means that <b>the period required for angels and the spirits to ascend unto Allah is fifty thousand years.</b>
d) The period for two different acts need not be the same. For example the period required for me to travel to destination ‘A’ say L.A Vashi is one hour and the period required for me to travel to destination ‘B’ i.e. NY is 50 hours. This does not indicate that I am making two contradictory statements.
Thus the verses of the Qur’an not only do not contradict each other, <b>they are also in perfect harmony with established modern scientific facts. Alhamdulelah.</b>
Quote:Or did Allah create the earth in 6 days (Qur'an 7,10,11,25) or did he create it in 8 days (Qur'an 41)
Again I choose to answer insha’Allah. we have explanation to all of your claims Alhamdulelah.
I do agree that the Qur’an says that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days i.e. 6 epochs and it is mentioned in
chapter 7 verse 54
chapter 10 verse 3
chapter 11 verse 7
chapter 25 verse 59
chapter 32 verse 4
chapter 50 verse 38
chapter 57 verse 4
The verses of the Qur’an which according to you say that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days are chapter 41 verses 9 to 12
"Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals With him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds;
He set on the (earth) mountains standing firm, High above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, In four days, in accordance with (the needs of) Those who seek (sustenance)."
Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth. "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly. They said: "We do come (Together), in willing obedience."
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command and We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the decree of (Him) the exalted in might, full of knowledge." [Al-Qur’an 41:9-12]
On the face of it, it seems that these verses of the Qur’an give the initial impression that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days.
Allah says in the beginning of this verse that those who exploit this information contained in this passage to raise doubts about its authenticity are equally interested in promulgating blasphemy and denying His unity. Allah is telling us that in course of time, there will emerge unbelievers who will make use of this apparent contradiction.
If you analyse these verses carefully, it speaks about 2 different creations: the earth and the heaven. The earth excluding the mountains was created in 2 days and the mountains were set on the earth standing firm and blessed and measured its sustenance in 4 days. Therefore the earth along with the mountains was created in 6 days according to verse 9 and 10. Verse 11 and 12 says, moreover the heavens were created in 2 days. The Arabic word used in the beginning of verse 11 of Surah Fussilat is summa which means; ‘then’ or ‘moreover’. There are certain Qur’anic translations, which have, used ‘then’ for the word summa which, indicates ‘afterwards’. If ‘then’ is wrongly used for summa then the total of the creation of heaven and earth will be 8 days which will conflict with other verses of the Qur’an which says heavens and earth were created in 6 days and will also conflict with the Big Bang Theory as well as the verse of the Qur’an Surah Al Ambiya chapter 21 verse 30 which says that heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.
Therefore the correct translation of the word summa in this verse would be ‘moreover’. Abdullah Yusuf Ali has rightly translated the word summa or moreover which clearly gives an indication that while the earth along with the mountains, etc. was created in 6 days simultaneously the heavens were created in 2 days. Therefore the total does not come to 8 days but 6 days.
If a builder says that he will construct a 10 storey building and surrounding compound wall in 6 months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in 2 months and the 10 storeys took 4 months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took 2 months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.
The Qur’an describe the creation of the universe in several places, sometimes it says the heavens and the earth (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 32:4, 50:38, 57:4) while in other places it says earth and the heaven (49:9-12, 2:29, 20:4) thus further supplementing the verse of Surah Al Ambiya chapter 21 verse 30 which speaks about the Big-Bang and that the heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.
Similarly in Surah Al-Baqara chapter 2 verse 29
"It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Then He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments. And of all things He hath perfect knowledge." [Al-Qur’an 2:29]
"It is who has created for you all things on the earth summa simultaneously made the heaven into seven firmaments".
Here also if you wrongly translate summa as ‘then’ only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Qur’an. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ‘moreover’ or ‘simultaneously’.
Quote:You've said that "One Scientific or Mathamatical Error is enough to prove that the Bible isn't the word of God." Why is it that you don't hold the Qur'an to the same standard?
Until now Alhamdulelah you have not been able to point out a single error in the Qur’an. what you are trying to do is to copy and paste from Anti Islamic websites who promote wrong information. Misquotation and quotation out of context to serve their purpose. But after a very scientific and logical explanation is given to any logical person, you will never come across any error in the Qur’an. Alhamdulelah.
Quote:My point in starting this thread was to take the focus off the science, history, and prophecy of the Bible and Qur'an. The bottom line is that you put your faith in Allah based on the Qur'an and I put my faith in Jesus through the revelation in the Bible. It takes <b>faith</b> for you to believe that ants talk just as it takes <b>faith</b> for me to believe that God created the earth in 6 literal days. Both of us in order to embrace our respective beliefs must take things on <i>faith</i> which we as humans do not and cannot understand.
Agains I disagree. And you already know why. Not a single scientist will disprove or prove talking ant. But there are hundreds of scientists who already disprove the point of 'creating the universe in 6 fays'. i hope you get what am talking about.
Quote:I have a feeling that we could debate these things for generations.
Yes I think so. But I might give up soon, because its not my intention to win any debate with you or with anyone. I don’t even call our discussion ‘debate’.
Salam
wael.
