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arclight · 03-30-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:We are not promised 72 virgins, but I believe we will have everything we want or need, and I suspect that having 72 wives might turn out to be Hell.

Its the 72 mother-in-laws that worry me :unsure:

The problem I have with the Bible is man's hand in it. The old testament is translated from Hebrew to latin then English, and to make it worse, its old english. The New Testament is also prone to mistranslation, on top of which parts of it were written a long time after Jesus' death. Although God may well have guided the hands of the men who transcribed the Bible, they where still men, and as such liable to mistakes. To my mind 90% of religious debates seem to hinge around wording, and interpretation. One missed placed comma, or apostrophe can change the entire meaning of a sentence, and you only have to look the fact that we use smileys to see why the written language has its limitations. Had to this the problems in translation, the best example I can come up with is the fact the eskimo's have 30 or so different words for snow, whereas english has snow and ice.

IMHO words such as 'saviour' and 'son' have many possible meanings, and depend upon the intention of the writer. Take "Jesus is the son of God". Everything was created by God, so therefore we are all God's children.

BTW 'Christianity' seems to have gained an 'a' in the title :blush:

Don Singleton · 03-30-2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:And welcome to the board Don

Sorry if this is a late welcome, and i think i might have missed some heated discussions here.

And thank you for your courtesy

Quote:As for the punishment promised by Allah to those who reject the faith, as u can clearly see from the Ayahs u yourself quoted, the punishment is in the hereafter.

That is what I understand from the Quran. The order to kill anyone that leaves Islam just comes from the hadith, and as I understand it only traditionalist or a fundamentalist Muslims recognize the hadith-narrations on the same level as the Quran and Sunnah. As I understand it, it did not even exist until at least 150 years after Muhammad's death, and that it was never supposed to be able to overrule the Quran, and many hadith were invented along the way to suit the purposes of rulers, kings, and others in power.

Quote:
As for a Muslim to accept jesus as savior, this is totally against Islamic teachings, for no one and I stress no one can shoulder someone else's sins or be accountable before Allah on behalf of someone else. No not even Prophet Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.

I accept that no man can shoulder someone else's sins.


But the Son of God can do many things that a man cannot do. I am sorry that you cannot know Him as I do.

Quote:
It still has another part that explains that both women and men are equal in applying the punishment of killing in case of apostacy.

Equal right to be killed. I can see why they say Islam is a religion of peace.

Quote:
The Hanafi school also explains that the hadeeth say one who changes the religion but that does not include one who changes from a kufr religion to another kufr." (Quran 3;72)

So you don't care if a Jew embraces Christ, or if a Christian embraces Judiasm, and that is even in the Quran, but the instruction to kill those that leave Islam had to wait 150 years, until there was a ruler that equated faith with loyalty to him as a leader, and who wanted to justify punishing those that turned against him (not against Allah, or against Islam, but against his rule).

Quote:As u see the Ayah is warning us from those who pretend to be Muslims then reject it in order for others to follow them. In such case the punishment has to be really harsh to deter those who think this way.

I may be wrong, but I dont recall seeing that Abdul Rahman encouraged anyone else to join him in becoming a Christian

Don Singleton · 03-30-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:Just because God Almitghy is able to send ' his son' would that mean to you that He 'can really’ do such thing? No of course not.

Yes I believe that if he is able to do something, then he can really do it.

If you are able to do something, it means you have the ability. If even possessing the ability to do something, you dont feel you can do it, it must be because you don't have someone's permission to do that thing.

But God both is able to do anything He wants, because He is Almighty, and He can do anything he wants, because He is Supreme (He does not need anyone's permission)

Quote:Since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act. this is a foolish logic that some people say that God can do ANYTHING... of course He can if he chooses to do so but anything that He is going to do must be GODLY thing.

But is He restricted to doing just the things that you will think are GODLY?

I believe He can do anything He wants to do, including sending his Son to Earth, and allowing His Son to assume the sins of mankind.

Quote:also God can send some kind of 'son' if He chooses so, but the moment He do that, He ceases to be God.

Are you saying that if God does something you think is not a Godly thing, that he just ceases to be God to you, or that you have the power to deprive him of his status as God?

Quote:He will not be God anymore, The act of begetting is a physical act and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says:

"It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is." (Maryam 19:35)

Begetting is a physical act; It is the act of procreation or sexual intercourse.

As I indicated above, God did not have sexual intercorse with the Virgin Mary. He sent his seed directly into her womb, and she gave birth to His Son while still being a virgin.

Don Singleton · 03-30-2006, 09:30 PM

Quote:i really dont know how did you come to this conclusion that i understand what you are talking about !!!

I believe I explained it in post 27

Quote:Ok now I would like to share with you an obvious contradiction between John 3:16, Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:16-17., John 3:16 says:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, that whosoever believeth in him
 should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now let’s read Luke 10:25-28:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live.

These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says; 

"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life?
So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God.
But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."


NOT TO BELIEVE IN ME
 , Jesus said KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS and you will inherit eternal life... plain and clear. no interpretation needed.

John 3:16 tells what God did; the verses you quoted in Luke and Mathew tell what Jesus (who was born of a Jewish woman, and hence was legally a Jew) told to other Jews, and that is that they should follow the compact they had with God.


My mother was not a Jew, therefore I am not a Jew, however I have accepted Jesus as my saviour, and that relationship guarantees me a place in Heaven, even though I do not "keep kosher, and do other things expected of Jews.

Quote:
no one can question God of what he do, but this same God has given us intellect to think and judge right from wrong, this same God also revealed His qualities and attributes to us, and one of His quality that He have no son or anyone equal to him, so we have the right to say that HE CANNOT HAVE A SON, and if you still insist that Jesus is the son of God then i will say that Adam is also the son of God, Israel is the first born of God, David is also the begotten son of God, i can show you plenty of people who are 'sons' of God, there is no verse where it show that Jesus SPECIAL son of God. so no point to argue Don.

God did not create Adam by placing his seed in Eve. Rather he created Adam from the earth, and he took a rib from Adam, and created Eve. All of the rest were begatted, i.e. created through sexual intercourse. These others may be decendents of Adam, but they are not his sons, nor are they sons of God

Don Singleton · 03-30-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:Its the 72 mother-in-laws that worry me :unsure:

They concern me too. Now I really think that would be Hell

Quote:The problem I have with the Bible is man's hand in it. The old testament is translated from Hebrew to latin then English, and to make it worse, its old english. The New Testament is also prone to mistranslation, on top of which parts of it were written a long time after Jesus' death. Although God may well have guided the hands of the men who transcribed the Bible, they where still men, and as such liable to mistakes. To my mind 90% of religious debates seem to hinge around wording, and interpretation.

Your Qu'ran was written by a man, as well. He may have included a number of verses that in effect say that Allah has proofread this, but did he really?

And to get back to the subject that started this thread a large number of messages ago, you have people that want to kill someone for leaving Islam, when there is nothing in the Quran to prohibit that. It is in a set of rules written 150 years or later after the death of your Prophet

Quote:One missed placed comma, or apostrophe can change the entire meaning of a sentence, and you only have to look the fact that we use smileys to see why the written language has its limitations. Had to this the problems in translation, the best example I can come up with is the fact the eskimo's have 30 or so different words for snow, whereas english has snow and ice.

If you had as much snow as they have to deal with, you would probably have 30 or more words for it too, to describe various states or conditions of the snow.

Quote:IMHO words such as 'saviour' and 'son' have many possible meanings, and depend upon the intention of the writer. Take "Jesus is the son of God". Everything was created by God, so therefore we are all God's children.

I take pleasure in thinking of myself as one of God's children, but I would never say I was His Son.

Quote:BTW 'Christianity' seems to have gained an 'a' in the title :blush:

Yes when Muslimah first changed the subject he put some arabic script at the front, then he (or someone else) changed it again, and the extra 'a' crept in

wel_mel_2 · 03-30-2006, 10:25 PM

Bismillah:

Quote:The phrase 'to have eternal life' may sound strange, if you have never heard it before, but it means being in Heaven with our Lord. We are not promised 72 virgins, but I believe we will have everything we want or need, and I suspect that having 72 wives might turn out to be Hell.

You said “I BELIEVE WE WILL HAVE EVERYTHING WE WANT OR NEED” so why are you complaining “if someone” WANT OR NEED 72 wives?

Now, who told you that the word HOOR means WIVES or VERGINS?? Well please let us know if you REALLY want to get better understanding about this matter.

Quote:His capacity to forgive never disappeared or got weak. But I am not aware of any faith which guarantees that everything will be forgiven, regardless of how bad it may be. In your own faith, for example, 4.93 says "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him." In other words He guarantees that some things will not be forgiven.

Sometimes the answer is given in another place in the Qur’an, I think those coming verses will show you the answer:

“Do they not know that it is Allah Who accepts the repentance of His servants and receives (approves) their charity, and that Allah is the Relenting, the Compassionate?” (At-Tawbah: 104)

“Say: ‘O My servants who wronged against their souls, do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate.’” (Az-Zumar: 53)

Quote:
Some Christians hold that acceptance of Christ as their personal savious is the only way to get in Heaven,

Im sorry, but this is not what Jesus said, in fact this is not what the Bible said

Jesus said if you want to be save and have eternal life, Keep the commandments " and the first of all the commandment is to worship God alone not Jesus". He didn’t say believe in me as savior and you will go to heaven… also the Bible mentioned in the old testament that God said: Beside me THERE IS NO OTHER SAVIOR, and as you know God of the OLD TESTAMENT is the Father, and NOT Jesus, or was he Jesus also ?

salam

wael.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 03-30-2006, 10:32 PM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

DON

I THINK YOU DID NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THIS POST. i wonder why. 

Salam Don,

Quote:You are very close to understanding why he had to send his Son.

i really dont know how did you come to this conclusion that i understand what you are talking about !!!

Quote:As you indicated, as God he canot make a mistake but the people He created were being lured into Sin by Satan, who He created as well. He made compacts with the people, such as were done with Moses, and the people were not following those compacts. As you said, He is the source of Justice and Mercy, but since He cannot make a mistake He could not just say" "Well that compact was too hard, here is an easier one, and if you follow it, you will still have eternal life". But as John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In other words He did not change the rules; but He did send His Son, who was totally without sin, and allowed His Son to take upon Himself the penalty of everyone's sin. All they had to do was accept this gift from God's Son.

interesting verse... if we just believe in the son then we shall inherit eternal life,. Ok now I would like to share with you an obvious contradiction between John 3:16, Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:16-17., John 3:16 says:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now let’s read Luke 10:25-28:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live.

These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says;

"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

NOT TO BELIEVE IN ME , Jesus said KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS and you will inherit eternal life... plain and clear. no interpretation needed.

Quote:If God is Supreme, then who can say what he can or should do? If by the act of begetting being a physical act you are referring to sex, then I will agree with you, however he did not have sex with the Virgin Mary. He sent his seed into her womb by saying that it be done. Our Holy Book says he sent the Holy Spirit to put the seed in her, but it was not through the act of copulation.

no one can question God of what he do, but this same God has given us intellect to think and judge right from wrong, this same God also revealed His qualities and attributes to us, and one of His quality that He have no son or anyone equal to him, so we have the right to say that HE CANNOT HAVE A SON, and if you still insist that Jesus is the son of God then i will say that Adam is also the son of God, Israel is the first born of God, David is also the begotten son of God, i can show you plenty of people who are 'sons' of God, there is no verse where it show that Jesus SPECIAL son of God. so no point to argue Don.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 03-30-2006, 10:39 PM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Your Qu'ran was written by a man, as well. He may have included a number of verses that in effect say that Allah has proofread this, but did he really?

i think talking without any proof or certain knowledge is going to make feel that you have started to bash our faith!!!! i thought you come here to ask some questions.. so please if you have a question about the Qur'an let us know, but there is no need to make false claims without proof.

thanks

Salam

Wael.

Don Singleton · 03-31-2006, 03:12 AM

Quote:You said “I BELIEVE WE WILL HAVE EVERYTHING WE WANT OR NEED” so why are you complaining “if someone” WANT OR NEED 72 wives?

I have never been married, but from what I have been told by many people, just one wife can often be a handful, and I can't imagine anyone needing 72, and anyone that wants 72 is thinking about things other than Allah.

Quote:Now, who told you that the word HOOR means WIVES or VERGINS?? Well please let us know if you REALLY want to get better understanding about this matter.

I don't recall where I heard it first, but I have heard it many times. Just seeing the word makes me think I may know the translation, but what is the proper translation.

Quote:Im sorry, but this is not what Jesus said, in fact this is not what the Bible said

Jesus said if you want to be save and have eternal life, Keep the commandments " and the first of all the commandment is to worship God alone not Jesus". He didn’t say believe in me as savior and you will go to heaven…

As I indicated earlier, Jesus was born a Jew, and in the verses you quoted he was talking to other Jews, and advising them to follow the terms of the compact God established with the Jewish Race. But shortly before He was crucified he said (John 14:6) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and He said (John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Quote:also the Bible mentioned in the old testament that God said: Beside me THERE IS NO OTHER SAVIOR, and as you know God of the OLD TESTAMENT is the Father, and NOT Jesus, or was he Jesus also ?

The story of Jesus is told in the New Testament. The Old Testament covers times before the birth of Christ.

Don Singleton · 03-31-2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:i think talking without any proof or certain knowledge is going to make feel that you have started to bash our faith!!!! i thought you come here to ask some questions.. so please if you have a question about the Qur'an let us know, but there is no need to make false claims without proof.

My post was in response to the fact that the Holy Bible was written by men. I merely pointed out that the same was true of your Quran.

I did not consider the post that I responded to was an attempt to bash my faith, so I did not see my post as bashing yours.

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