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Penalty of converting to Christianity
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03-29-2006, 07:34 PM
Quote:Only Allah and Allah Alone is authorised to forgive and eliminate and even turn such sins into good deeds. <b>Isn't Allah the supreme authority? Who "authorizes" Allah and Allah alone to do anything?</b> And if Allah is the supreme authority, then what gives you the power to say that he may not authorize his own Son to do something?
03-29-2006, 07:47 PM
Quote:Jesus Christ is the "son of man" because he was born of a woman, in a physical body. He is the "son of God" because it was the Holy Ghost that placed the baby in Mary's womb. Not through any sexual means. But like Umm stated before, by YHWH allowing it to be so, and it was. Because of these two actions, Christ is both son of man, and son of God. I hope you are no longer confused Muslimah. <b>I agree with you completely.</b> Quote:To get the full message, you should read from verse 81 to verse 91. That makes it clear that "people of the Book" won't be accepted unless they turn to Islam. <b>There are some Christians that interpret verses in the Holy Bible to say that their interpretation, and only their interpretation, is the valid one, and that everyone else is going to Hell. I do not agree with them.</b> I believe that if a Jew follows the Law of Moses, and the compact that God established with the Jews, that he will go to Heaven. I believe that all Christians that truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior wil go to Heaven. And I believe that Moslem that faithfully follow the Five Pillars of Islam will go to Heaven. I believe that those that distort the Qu'ran, and interpret the word jihad not as it was intended, the struggle that all men have to do the will of Allah, but instead to justify killing anyone that disagrees with them (Muslim, Christian, or Jew), is not headed to Paradise with 72 virgins waiting for him, but rather is going directly to Hell, as it says in Quran 4.93 
03-29-2006, 08:09 PM
Bismillah salam Don and Shamms Don I think u started this thread to discuss the penalty of apostates which Faris started giving u information about and it was complimented by a number of threads to cover the issue. But as I see the discussion is taking a totally different turn. Not that I m objecting to this. BUt make up your mind. Insh a Allah later on I think I will need to take those posts discussing who is jesus to another thread. for now, it was a linguistic mistake, no one authorizes Allah because yes Allah Is the Supreme authority. Just a mis expression may Allah Forgive me. I meant that only Allah Is the One who Is Oft Forgiving.
03-29-2006, 10:34 PM
Quote:Don I think u started this thread to discuss the penalty of apostates which Faris started giving u information about and it was complimented by a number of threads to cover the issue. <b>That is correct. I wanted to know if there was anything in the Qu'ran that called for such a punshment. It appears there is not any such call in the Qu'ran. Elsewhere I have learned that the only reference is in the Hadeeth (or should that be Hadith) and that there is nothing in the Qu'ran or even the Sunnah that justifies it.</b> Quote:But as I see the discussion is taking a totally different turn. Not that I m objecting to this. BUt make up your mind. Insh a Allah later on I think I will need to take those posts discussing who is jesus to another thread. <b>I am sure He will forgive you, because as I know Him, through his Son Jesus, He is a loving and forgiving God. In fact that is why he sent his Son to die for our sins. (or at least my sins; you would have to accept him for him to stand up for you on Judgement Day.</b> You may not believe that he did send his Son to Earth, to die so that we might have eternal life, but I presume that since you agree He is the Supreme Authority he could have done exactly that, i.e. He had the ability to do it, and He did not have to ask anyone's permission to do so. </div></blockquote>  Bismillah: Quote:You may not believe that he did send his Son to Earth, to die so that we might have eternal life, but I presume that since you agree He is the Supreme Authority he could have done exactly that, i.e. He had the ability to do it, and He did not have to ask anyone's permission to do so.[/b] Just because God Almitghy is able to send <b>' his son' </b> would that mean to you that He<b> 'can really’ </b> do such thing? No of course not. Since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, <b>or having any such human failings.</b> Similarly God <b>can do injustice if He chooses to</b>, <b>but He will never do it </b> because being unjust is an ungodly act. this is a foolish logic that some people say that God can do ANYTHING... of course He can if he chooses to do so but anything that He is going to do must be GODLY thing. also God can send some kind of 'son' if He chooses so, but the moment He do that, He ceases to be God. He will not be God anymore, <b>The act of begetting is a physical act </b> and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says: "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it <b>"Be," and it is." </b> (Maryam 19:35) salam wael  Bismillah Peace Don (Sister Muslimah, sorry just 'hanging in here' continuing perhaps what is not within the frame of the thread.. :) ) Quote:You may not believe that he did send his Son to Earth, to die so that we might have eternal life, but I presume that since you agree He is the Supreme Authority he could have done exactly that, i.e. He had the ability to do it, and He did not have to ask anyone's permission to do so. Yes I think this is the position by all people that are not Christians, that He did not send His son to earth. As a Muslim/ah this phrase 'to have eternal life' sounds a bit strange, since according to Islam, the eternal afterlife has always been taught by His messengers and prophets. It is not a new concept with the event of Christianity. But what has been taught on the other hand is where that eternal life will be spent, in Paradise/Heaven or in Hell. True, Allah SWT does not have to ask the permission of anyone, that is His 'privilage' one could say. But one logical question is, when knowing the ability of Him and that He is Forgiving and Merciful, and He has always been able to forgive people in earlier generations without demading a human sacrifice in order to be able to forgive, why did His capacity to Forgive and be Merciful suddenly disappear or got weak when Christianity entered the stage?
03-30-2006, 07:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2006, 07:20 AM by Don Singleton.)
Quote:Just because God Almitghy is able to send <b>' his son' </b> would that mean to you that He<b> 'can really’ </b> do such thing? No of course not. <b>You are very close to understanding why he had to send his Son. As you indicated, as God he canot make a mistake but the people He created were being lured into Sin by Satan, who He created as well. He made compacts with the people, such as were done with Moses, and the people were not following those compacts. As you said, He is the source of Justice and Mercy, but since He cannot make a mistake He could not just say" "Well that compact was too hard, here is an easier one, and if you follow it, you will still have eternal life". But as John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In other words He did not change the rules; but He did send His Son, who was totally without sin, and allowed His Son to take upon Himself the penalty of everyone's sin. All they had to do was accept this gift from God's Son. </b> Quote:also God can send some kind of 'son' if He chooses so, but the moment He do that, He ceases to be God. He will not be God anymore, <b>The act of begetting is a physical act </b> and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says: <b>If God is Supreme, then who can say what he can or should do? If by the act of begetting being a physical act you are referring to sex, then I will agree with you, however he did not have sex with the Virgin Mary. He sent his seed into her womb by saying that it be done. Our Holy Book says he sent the Holy Spirit to put the seed in her, but it was not through the act of copulation.</b>
03-30-2006, 07:34 AM
Bismillah salam UmmZ no need to apologise, u understand my point, members may come to the board looking for something and not find it because it is under a different title. That is all we care about. make things easier for those who are really willing to know the truth. I think i will take Don's suggestion of changing the thread title to fit both subjects. So just enjoy everyone. Bismillah: Salam Don, Quote:<b>You are very close to understanding why he had to send his Son. </b> i really dont know how did you come to this conclusion that i understand what you are talking about !!! Quote:As you indicated, as God he canot make a mistake but the people He created were being lured into Sin by Satan, who He created as well. He made compacts with the people, such as were done with Moses, and the people were not following those compacts. As you said, He is the source of Justice and Mercy, but since He cannot make a mistake He could not just say" "Well that compact was too hard, here is an easier one, and if you follow it, you will still have eternal life". But as John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In other words He did not change the rules; but He did send His Son, who was totally without sin, and allowed His Son to take upon Himself the penalty of everyone's sin. All they had to do was accept this gift from God's Son. interesting verse... if we just believe in the son then we shall <b>inherit eternal life ,. </b> Ok now I would like to share with you an <b>obvious contradiction </b> between John 3:16, Luke 10:25-28 <b>and Matthew 19:16-17.</b>, John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, <b>that whosoever believeth in him </b> <b>should not perish, but have everlasting life</b>." Now let’s read Luke 10:25-28: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to <b>inherit eternal life</b>? He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live. <b>These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says; </b> "And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. <b>But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments." </b> <b>NOT TO BELIEVE IN ME </b> , Jesus said KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS and you will inherit eternal life... plain and clear. no interpretation needed. Quote: no one can question God of what he do, but this same God has given us intellect to think and judge right from wrong, this same God also revealed His qualities and attributes to us, and one of His quality that He have no son or anyone equal to him, so we have the right to say that HE CANNOT HAVE A SON, and if you still insist that Jesus is the son of God then i will say that Adam is also the son of God, Israel is the first born of God, David is also the begotten son of God, i can show you plenty of people who are 'sons' of God, there is no verse where it show that Jesus SPECIAL son of God. so no point to argue Don. Salam Wael.
03-30-2006, 05:59 PM
Quote:Yes I think this is the position by all people that are not Christians, that He did not send His son to earth. As a Muslim/ah this phrase 'to have eternal life' sounds a bit strange, since according to Islam, the eternal afterlife has always been taught by His messengers and prophets. It is not a new concept with the event of Christianity. But what has been taught on the other hand is where that eternal life will be spent, in Paradise/Heaven or in Hell. <b>The phrase 'to have eternal life' may sound strange, if you have never heard it before, but it means being in Heaven with our Lord. We are not promised 72 virgins, but I believe we will have everything we want or need, and I suspect that having 72 wives might turn out to be Hell.</b> Quote:True, Allah SWT does not have to ask the permission of anyone, that is His 'privilage' one could say. But one logical question is, when knowing the ability of Him and that He is Forgiving and Merciful, and He has always been able to forgive people in earlier generations without demading a human sacrifice in order to be able to forgive, why did His capacity to Forgive and be Merciful suddenly disappear or got weak when Christianity entered the stage? <b>His capacity to forgive never disappeared or got weak. But I am not aware of any faith which guarantees that everything will be forgiven, regardless of how bad it may be. In your own faith, for example, 4.93 says "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him." In other words He guarantees that some things will not be forgiven.</b> I do sometimes wonder about the clerics that encourage young people to blow themselves up, killing innocents, including other Muslims, and promising them 72 virgins in the afterlife (unless as I speculated above, having 72 wives really would be Hell. Some Christians hold that acceptance of Christ as their personal savious is the only way to get in Heaven, but I do not see anything that indicates that other compacts have been cancelled, therefore I expect to see some Jews in Heaven that have followed the compact He established with the Jewish People, and have complied with what He told Moses. And I expect to see some Muslims there, that have truly followed the 5 Pillars. I regret that your fellow Muslims will kill you if you come to know Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, because it not only would guarantee you a place in Heaven with Him, but he would be with you the rest of the time you are on Earth. |
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