Child Molestation

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace Universist


I must ask Allah to Forgive me for failing to adopt the conduct a Muslim must maintain while talking to non Muslims.


I m only human who sometimes out of fault just forget this, you are a non Muslim and I must take this consideration, regardless of your aggressive attitude which does not help much to represent Universism as a calling trend.


Before Iftar today, I thought to myself about an important point. You are upset for children whom you see abused and you are working hard to change the world, the whole world according to your own viewpoint. I mean your actions are derived and based on your perception of things.


Just the same way as we are. We also feel very upset and sad for children being exposed as children to what you call a choice to lead such a life. I just realized this point.


Having said that, let me continue.


First, you might be surprised but I did click a couple of links.


Let us first clarify an essential point here:


we are Muslims who have faith in Allah, Quran and sunnah.


We belive Allah Does Exist opposite to you, you dont believe there is a Creator.


We fully accept the laws inherit in Quran and sunnah.


You fully accept manmade laws and what it brings of consequences.


Now, let me be more professional.


When I posted the reply I forgot to put something very important.


The marriage will only be valid if the girl accepts. Again I stress if the girl accepts


Otherwise, the guardian is committing a sin by consumating a marriage when the girl is not accepting.


To conclude, if there are such practices when a girl is denied her right to accept or not accept marriage, it is not the fault of the system, but rather the implementer. I will not go into details bringing you the hadeeth that stands as proof for this.


As I said earlier, if we have problems we can solve it. You know how? by allowing better and correct Islamic education so that a guardian would realize he is not allowed to force his daughter, sister...etc into marriage unless she accepts. No matter if she is 13 and the man is 40. If she is accepting then fine.


Whereas your aim is to correct such faulty practices through your own means. you want to abolish Islam. isnt this your aim???

[Universist]

Bismillah
Peace Universist


As I said earlier, if we have problems we can solve it. You know how? by allowing better and correct Islamic education so that a guardian would realize he is not allowed to force his daughter, sister...etc into marriage unless she accepts. No matter if she is 13 and the man is 40. If she is accepting then fine.


Whereas your aim is to correct such faulty practices through your own means. you want to abolish Islam. isnt this your aim???

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Two points.


1. First and foremost I DO NOT WISH TO ABOLISH ISLAM....


2. I want ISLAM TO REFORM ITSELF....


That is my aim...


So you clicked some links and what did you see? You see truth about human beings. A truth that begins with the laws that are laid out for a society to follow. When those rules do not protect fundamental human rights, they must be changed. Otherwise the cycle of violence, abuse, and horror is never ending.


What you and I fail to agree on is whether the complete system of society that Islam offers is truly up to the task of creating a vibrant, free society, capable of advancing the sciences, the arts, and human endeavor.


Your way of being has been on the planet 1500 years. And there is very little positive to show for what it has accomplished in this time. America has been here 300 years and our system of laws based on the freedom of the individual has taken us far beyond what Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism or any other religion will ever achieve.


It is only through a system of law which protects individual freedom that we will survive as a species. That is my belief. And that is proven in the history of America vs. the history of all previous empires. And it is a fact that Islam does not protect the individual. Rather it inspires strong fundamentalist leanings which seek to protect its failings and excuse its abuses because of a misguided belief in its accuracy as a system of societal function handed down to us by God.


That is where we part ways in our thinking. And the proof that I am right sits in front of you now. Your using a computer to communicate across a network that spreads world wide invented by FREEDOM alone. Not through an Islamic way of being.


And here is a fact. All of the inventions that we use in our modern world were always achievable. 1500 years ago when your religion started it was as possible then to fly, to goto the moon, to build a computer, as it is today. All of it could have been achieved much sooner. But did not.


Why? Because religion says all the answers are in the book, so why bother looking. And until we freed our minds from this enslavement, nothing of value followed. And that is why freedom to decide what to do with your life without the slavery of the mind is so important.


And that is ultimately why the horrifying child abuse continues within Islam unabatted with the protections of its laws while its followers do nothing about its true cause.


Time for reform in Islam. It is not perfect, and the proof of this is in the long and horrifying history whose links I have provided in previous post.


Universist

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Universist, we sure disagree on fundamental issues as I mentioned before.


I understand your endeavor to strive to secure a better life for human beings. However, just note that Islam does not need reform, how can we reform what Allah Wrote?


But as usual u missed an important point in my post, I clearly told you that I forgot to stress that one of the conditions for any marriage to be valid is the woman's acceptance. without it the marriage is invalid. Thus parents who force their daughters either 13, 20 or 30 years old into marriage are committing a sin.


And why are u only worried about girls, arent u aware that there are families who force their sons into marriages even though the son clearly expresses a wish to marry someone else?


Let us even delve more into this issue, there are ethnic groups who have nothing to do with Islam or even in some cases any other religion who enforce social practices including the obligation of marriages within the same tribe, family..etc. I m sure you are aware of this.


Again Islam does not need reform but rather needs to be well taught to its followers.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace Universist


Regarding the superiority point of the US that you like to stress, boy you are quite proud to be american I m happy for you, there are others who are not sharing the same opinion as you are will post something on that Insh a Allah, I have ayahs from Quran that explain this situation. But I dont want to hijack the thread and be banned by Dan [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]


If u like just start a new thread and I will post it there Insh a Allah

[Universist]

Bismillah
Peace Universist


Regarding the superiority point of the US that you like to stress, boy you are quite proud to be american I m happy for you, there are others who are not sharing the same opinion as you are will post something on that Insh a Allah, I have ayahs from Quran that explain this situation. But I dont want to hijack the thread and be banned by Dan [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]


If u like just start a new thread and I will post it there Insh a Allah

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Sure, go ahead and use the computer, network, and technology invented by AMERICANS to start a new thread concerning the inferiority of Islam as a system of government. No problem with me.


Universist

[Universist]

Bismillah
Universist, we sure disagree on fundamental issues as I mentioned before.

Yes we disagree. I abhore a political and social system with laws which would allow a child of 9 to be raped by a man of 40. And you seem to forgive it.


Your standing in moral quicksand here and you don't seem to mind one bit.

I understand your endeavor to strive to secure a better life for human beings. However, just note that Islam does not need reform, how can we reform what Allah Wrote?

Yes it does. And many educated scholars among you agree. Shall I post a few hundred links that support this view among respected muslim scholars who also view nine years of age as too young for marriage. Apparently the politicos in Iran AGREE as well since they just changed thier own laws...


And ALLAH didnt write one word. Neither did the prophet. MEN who surrounded him transliterated his words. Remember he was illiterate and could not write, so he depended on MEN who surrounded him to do so. And so MEN did indeed write down the words of the prophet.

But as usual u missed an important point in my post, I clearly told you that I forgot to stress that one of the conditions for any marriage to be valid is the woman's acceptance. without it the marriage is invalid. Thus parents who force their daughters either 13, 20 or 30 years old into marriage are committing a sin.
And why are u only worried about girls, arent u aware that there are families who force their sons into marriages even though the son clearly expresses a wish to marry someone else?


Let us even delve more into this issue, there are ethnic groups who have nothing to do with Islam or even in some cases any other religion who enforce social practices including the obligation of marriages within the same tribe, family..etc. I m sure you are aware of this.


Again Islam does not need reform but rather needs to be well taught to its followers.

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You would think that something written by God would not need better teachers. Seems to me like the word of God should be 100% clear with no ambiguity and that followers would only need read it a single time to be able to follow it without error.


And it would seem that everyone from the Taliban to Osama understands it well enough to justify the continued VIOLENT MURDEROUS JIHAD which has resulted in the deaths of true muslim women and children throughout the world.


I don't envy you one bit trying to defend your system of belief. With 23 Islamic wars, 9 totletarian states, 100's of daily violent deaths, and continued misery for millions in Africa and the Middle East due to Islam, there is no doubt Islam needs a reform.


And you know what. We in the west are not going to sit still anymore waiting for it. And whether thats right or wrong, so be it. Islam in its current forms represent a threat not only to me and mine but ultimately in time to the entire civilization. That part of it which incites fundametalist terror, child abuse, forced behavior, fascism, and violence against the weak needs to be removed from its teachings. Just like the Jews and the Christians both did over 400 years ago, its Islam's turn now.


Universist

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Universist, now you are really confused. I m not sure if u started this whole thread in an indirect way to refer to the marriage of MOhamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam or to discuss forced marriage?


If to discuss forced marraige i think I gave u a full reply to which you are turning a blind eye. If to discuss the marraige of the prophet salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam, then you are hijacking the thread but someone else already started this topic.


What is more important is you need to know that if u r here to call for reforming Islam, in the way you are talking you are almost waging war on Islam from this board.


Think again about your hostil attitude before we need to take a decision.


Surely you are not here to learn about Islam. We do allow non Muslims around even if they dont want to learn. But not to fight us. We dont need it really. We are here to learn and help others learn.

[Universist]

Bismillah
Universist, now you are really confused. I m not sure if u started this whole thread in an indirect way to refer to the marriage of MOhamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam or to discuss forced marriage?


If to discuss forced marraige i think I gave u a full reply to which you are turning a blind eye. If to discuss the marraige of the prophet salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam, then you are hijacking the thread but someone else already started this topic.


What is more important is you need to know that if u r here to call for reforming Islam, in the way you are talking you are almost waging war on Islam from this board.


Think again about your hostil attitude before we need to take a decision.


Surely you are not here to learn about Islam. We do allow non Muslims around even if they dont want to learn. But not to fight us. We dont need it really. We are here to learn and help others learn.

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I am not here to fight you. Bad interpretation on your part.


I am here to learn about the parts of Islam that are good. And to call for reform of the parts that are bad. I am not waging a war. I have no guns, no bullets, no bombs. Only words.


Its that simple.


Universist

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Universist


Thank u so much for your explanation:: [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]


Sometimes your over high volume really makes me sort of wanting an explanation.


Universist, we as Muslims will be the wrong target group for you to call for reform. I really dont want u wasting your time. Plus there are no aspects in Islam that are good and others that are bad.


Alhamdulelah all are from Allah and all are just perfect including good conduct and manner. That is why we adopt patience with non Muslims here, we understand their position. I really do. I mean it. I cannt blame u much. But as long as u wish to learn, just try to do so. In no way, we mean to tell u learn with the condition to join. Joining or not is not our duty to make compulsory.


so Alhamdulelah we made this clear.

[Universist]

Plus there are no aspects in Islam that are good and others that are bad.

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We do see things differently don't we.


Universist