A discussion about Israel and Quran

[reepicheep]

Rock wrote:


> we need them to end the Israelian occupation


I assume by "Israelian occupation" you are referring to the state of Israel. If so, then please be advised that, in the Koran, Allah (swt) clearly promises Israel to the Jews. The land belongs to them:

And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, We will gather you together in a mingled crowd. (Koran, Sura 17:104, "The Night Journey")

Apparently, the phrase "we will gather you together in a mingled crowd" is a reference to the establishment of a Jewish homeland (i.e., the founding of the State of Israel in 1947). If so, then Allah (swt) clearly wants Israel to exist as a homeland for the Jews.


Perhaps the root cause of all the problems Muslims are currently experiencing, is that Muslims are going against the will of Allah (swt) by refusing to recognize the right of Israel to exist.

[radiyah]

Rock wrote:
> we need them to end the Israelian occupation


I assume by "Israelian occupation" you are referring to the state of Israel.  If so, then please be advised that, in the Koran, Allah (swt) clearly promises Israel to the Jews.  The land belongs to them:


Apparently, the phrase "we will gather you together in a mingled crowd" is a reference to the establishment of a Jewish homeland (i.e., the founding of the State of Israel in 1947).  If so, then Allah (swt) clearly wants Israel to exist as a homeland for the Jews.


Perhaps the root cause of all the problems Muslims are currently experiencing, is that Muslims are going against the will of Allah (swt) by refusing to recognize the right of Israel to exist.

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Reepi, why can't u stop that own translation of yours, and instead of assuming ask to clarify the meaning. [img]style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif[/img]


Now it is not what u have written here, and we muslims will never go against the will of Allah, we are against ourselves because we are not good muslims that is why palestine is occupied.


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:






102:[Mûsa (Moses)] said: "Verily, you know that these signs have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as clear (evidences i.e. proofs of Allâh's Oneness and His Omnipotence, etc.). And I think you are, indeed, O Fir'aun (Pharaoh) doomed to destruction (away from all good)!" (Al-Isra 17:102)


103:So he resolved to turn them out of the land (of Egypt). But We drowned him and all who were with him. (Al-Isra 17:103)


104:And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) <><> <> on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).[Tafsir Al-Qurtubî, Vol. 10, Page 338] (Al-Isra 17:104)


105:And with truth We have sent it down (i.e. the Qur'ân), and with truth it has descended. And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as nothing but a bearer of glad tidings (of Paradise, for those who follow your Message of Islâmic Monotheism), and a warner (of Hell-fire for those who refuse to follow your Message of Islâmic Monotheism). (Al-Isra 17:105)


Now when u cut and paste, take the ayahs before and after, this was at the time of Moses and the pharaoh, when the jews were beleivers, and still they gave Prophet Moses a hard time, and they started worshiping the cow when he left them to get The Torah.


And the final promise is the resurrection day as u see here in this translation, and it is not only the jews will come to this land but all nations from all over, all will be forced to this land by a fire that will start from yemen land to the holy land of palestine, then the end of the world will come.


This is in brief an explanation of this ayah that u put, and it is not in any way what u are trying to convey, so just stop cutting and pasting from those sites that translate Quran as they wish, this is not the right of any1 but The Prophet(PBUH) and scholars of knowledge. And I think we told u that many times reepi, so if u have anything u do not understand ask for a correct translation from a scholar or us, we will in return put for u the answer according to tafseer books or our scholars. I hope this point will be clear for u once and for all.


Peace

[reepicheep]

Radiyah:


Using your translation, Surah 17:104 reads:

And We said to the Children of Israel
after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection]. We shall bring you
altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).

Clearly, this verse is directed towards the Jews. The word "you" which I have colored in red is referring to the phrase "Children of Israel". "Gathered out of various nations" clearly describes the way Jews have returned to the promised land over the last 100 years.


According to this verse, then, when the Day of Resurrection draws near the Jews will be gathered from the various nations where they were scattered, and return to dwell in Israel.


It appears to me that this prediction is being fulfilled, and that it is Allah's (swt) will that the Jews return to Israel.


Reepicheep.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace reepi


In a way u r right in your understanding, that Allah Sobhanhu wa Ta`la Allowed the jews to gather from all parts of the world into Palestine in order to fulfill the rest of the Ayah. The rest of the Ayah is that Insh a Allah in due time, Muslims will be one again and go into war with them and Insh a Allah win Palestine back.


Just for your information.


So no we are not going against Allah's Will.


If u want u can browse more on this same site, u will read a thread including a post about a Natara Karta Jewish organization who clearly declare the Jews have no right in Palestine as they disobeyed Allah and thus deserve to be scattered and live under Muslim rule. So in fact, Jews are the ones who are as usual denying to accept Allah's commands.


Hope u r happy now... [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

[radiyah]

Bismillah


Jazaky Allah khayr sister Muslima for this explanation, but I would really like to put here the exact meaning of this ayah according to tafseer Ibn Katheer and other scholars, who took their translation from prophet Mohammad(PBUH) by recurrence.


But first a few words to reepi, when u want to put a translation here put it from its right resourses, because as i told u no1 has the right to translate according to his own self or whims.






From Ibn Abbâs: Allah's Messenger(P) said: "He who says (something) concerning the Qur'ân without knowledge, he has taken his seat of fire"


The principles of tafsîr is very important in understanding the methodlogy involved in exegesis of the Qur'ân. So u better take care reepi before translating any verse becasue u have no right if u have no knowledge, when we bring verses from the bible u tell us that we do not know it and did not study it, and then when it comes to Quran u have the right. [img]style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif[/img]


Now the translation I put there, is the correct one according to IBN Katheer translation and Tabari as well. As I told u we do not put any answer here until we are sure of it by aid of Allah(SWT)


(And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near, We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd.'') meaning, all of you, you and your ene mies. Ibn `Abbas, Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak said, "It means all together.''



http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=29758


Yes they are to be gathered here all jews, because their end well be on the land of palestine by the hand of their enemies, and the jews who are refusing to come to israel know this truth and they know that they have no right in a state of Israel, and they know that when that state is built the end of the jews will be near.


Now u took the verse 104 and u did not go to the begining of the surrah:


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


4. And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that indeed <b>you would do mischief on the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant!</b>



5. So, when the promise came for the first of the two, <b>We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. </b>They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. <b>And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled.</b>


6. Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in man power.


7. (And We said): "If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, <b>and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before,</b> and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands.


8. [And We said in the Taurât (Torah)]: "It may be that your Lord may show mercy unto you,<b> but if you return (to sins), We shall return (to Our Punishment). And We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.</b> 17, Surrah Al-Isra'


I will not say much concerning the above ayahs, I will leave the link of tafseer ibn katheer for u to read, and if u find that u do not understand anything ask and we will clarify matters for u.


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=28569


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=28573


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=28582


Now to end this misunderstanding of Quran Issue, I started this thread which I wanted to start later, but since reepi is coming up with his own translation, below is the thread I started today, which is informative, where it explains what is tafseer, its principles & who has the right to translate The Holy Quran:


http://www.islamsms.com/bb//index.php?showtopic=2939


May Allah(SWT) accept from us, and forgive our shortcomings, and guide all those who are lost and misguided, Ameeeeeeeeeeeeen

[reepicheep]

radiyah quotes surah 17:104 as follows:


> (And We said to the Children of Israel after him:


> "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the


> last promise comes near, We shall bring you


> altogether as mixed crowd.'') meaning,



> all of you, you and your enemies.



The part I have left in black is from the Koran. The part in red is conjecture made by an Islamic scholar, and is based upon opinion and not surah 17:104.


Is the scholar's conjecture plausible? I say no. The phrase <b>"Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near, We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd"</b> is clearly addressed towards the <b>"Children of Israel".</b> Therefore, the phrase "mixed crowd" is referring to a group of Jews.


The scholar you quote says the phrase <b>"mixed crowd"</b> must be interpreted as<b> "Jews and their enemies". </b>I see no evidence here which supports his claim.


Four times now, the combined Arab armies have attempted to destroy Israel. And four times they have failed. Obviously, it was the will of Allah (swt) that Israel be victorious in these wars.


Egypt and Jordan have both signed peace treaties with Israel. Hopefully, sometime in the future, the other Arab countries will also sign treaties, and we will finally have peace in the Middle East.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Radiyah


This is just for my information, to my understanding, as I see what u put is not different from what I posted. Just to confirm that I understood correctly.


(<b>Yes they are to be gathered here all jews, because their end well be on the land of palestine by the hand of their enemies, and the jews who are refusing to come to israel know this truth and they know that they have no right in a state of Israel, and they know that when that state is built the end of the jews will be near.)
</b>


This is the part I am talking about Radiyah, this is for my information, isnt this almost what I posted? I just want to verify my info. Jazaki Allah khairan


<b>reepi, i have a totally different point to raise here. </b>
U r quoting from the Quran and taking it an evidence for the establishment of Israel being a fulfillment of Allah's word, does this mean u admit the Quran is Allah's word???


Waiting for a reply [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

[Rock]

it is very strange reepicheep,somtimes you consider the interpertation of the


islamic scholars and somtimes you refused,why?You accept that the land is


Palestine but you refused to accept that"you" means"the sons of Israel and


Pharaoh with his followers".


I think that if you know arabic you can understand what the sisters try to explain.


I expect you to accept muslems interpretation of their book as I expect me to accept your interpretation to the Bible.We are different in faith but it must be an area of agreement in any discussion,inspite of that I will try to clarify some points may be help.


Ayah104/17 said:"following the death of Pharaoh, we said to the son`s of Israel


"Dwell the land and when the promised day of judgement comes,We well bring you


as mixed crowd.".


1-"You"here is refer to those whom the God talk about,not to those whom the God


speak to them.If"following the death of Pharaoh"is not mentioned,we may accept


your interpretation.


2-"Day of judgement"is the translation of the arabic word"alakhera"which means in all the Quran ayahs"day of judgement".And actualy,The Ayah metioned that this


gathering will happen when the day of judgement comes,not comes near.So the Ayah consider when not where,and if you understand in Palestine,it does`nt matter,it will be in the day of judgement.


3-"Mixed crowd"is the translation of the arabic word"Lafifa"which means according to the arabic dictionary"group from different tribes".


I think instead of trying to find a reason for the Israelians occupation(I am sorry I


mean zionest occupation)extracted from the Quran,it is better to know why some jews(Natara Karta Jewish organization)clearly declare the Jews have no right in Palestine based on the Tora as sister Muslimah told you.


Assume that Israel`s son has any right in Palestine,who confirm that the jews are


descended from Israel.If me or you converted and become jew,shall we become from Israel`s sons having the right to occupy palestin,andif some of israel`s son embraced islam or christianty,they well lose this rights.


Beliefs may change but you can not change your parents.I suggest you to read a book titled"The thirteenth tribe"wrote by a famous jew writer.In this book the writer prove that the bulk of modern Jew is not of Palestinian,but of Caucasian origin.


Last point,you mention the Israelian state established in 1947,can I understand that you consider the rest of palestine(about 50% of palestine) are occupied and the jew must return to 1947 border,I accept this as a start.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


By the way Radiyah and Rock, the same Surah includes at the beginning as well Ayahs from 4- 7


which actually further explain the situation reepi is talking about, I think he got mixed up.


The Ayahs are as follows:


"And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that indeed you would do mischief on the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant! * So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled. * Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in man power.* (And We said): "If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands."

[radiyah]

Bismillah


Sister Muslimah, u r correct but still the word you that reepi is insisting that it is the jews it means all, and Jazzah Allah khayr brother Rock for that explanation which is totally correct. Reepi must stop giving himself the right to enterprit The Holy Quran from his own point of view and as he seas it in english, he is not a scholar and has no right to do that and should accept what we are presenting for him or as I said in my post :


From Ibn Abbâs: Allah's Messenger(P) said: "He who says (something) concerning the Qur'ân without knowledge, he has taken his seat of fire"



As u see this is what i meant in many posts, that no1 will know the real meaning and beauty of Quran until he learns arabic, and that was the miracle of our book, the arabic language, a Fatha(aa) or kasra(ee) or dama(oo) changed in a word will change the whole meaning of a sentence, and a word in a verse like the word You
here in english has three meanings in arabic or can be addresed in 4 ways


to single male = Anta


to plural masculin= Antum


to single female= Antee


to plural female=Antuna


and each one of these words will have a differerent meaning of a sentence according to its place in the sentence, like i said a (aa, or ee, or oo) can change the whole meaning of a sentence.


One more thing, which is very important and major, that The Holy Quran was addressed to muslims, and not to jews or christians, and in particular to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH), so when Allah(SWT) phrases his Ayahs, He is Telling Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) what the jews and christians did, and He is always addressing and ordering him to say to people the orders of Allah.


First Aya IQRA= ordering prophet Muhammad to read.


then in other various ayahs QUL= say, which means tell mu'minoon, or jews or christians the orders of Allah.


Now when Allah says we decreed on the children of Israel, Allah here is not talking directly to the jews, but He is telling us muslims the truth about the jews and the mischief they did in the land and how then they will be punished for their mischief and wrong doings.


I hope every1 now will know what I mean when I say, that The Quran will never be totally understood or find the beauty of it until one learns arabic. And reepi stop translating The Quran to what u wish, it is not your right. And I hope u will be patient until i build that tafseer link and u will know what I mean.


Salam brother and sister


Peace reepi