Are the Prophets sinless?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Wel_mel peace to u reepi


I am not sure to what exactly u r trying to get thru the eating pork but eating pork is forbidden. Yet, in certain cases when one's life is in jeopardy Allah Allows a Muslim to eat even the forbidden food.


I have a lot of comments on the posts above but it will take us off topic I will see how to deal with it.


But as for now, reepi u r right, Adam committed a sin according to Quran and he was the first Prophet. The evidence is that Allah Say in Quran:"They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers."


." (Quran 7:23)


They selected to ask for Allah's forgiveness unlike satan when he disobeyed and Alhamdulelah that they asked for Allah's forgiveness. let us not get off topic.


As who else sinned according to Quran, Mussa (Moases) did when he killed a soul by mistake when he was defending one of his people:


"And he entered the city at a time of unawareness of its people, and he found there two men fighting, - one of his party (his religion - from the Children of Israel), and the other of his foes. The man of his (own) party asked him for help against his foe, so Musa (Moses) struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: "This is of Shaytan's (Satan) doing, verily, he is a plain misleading enemy * He said: "My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, so forgive me." Then He forgave him. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Quran 28:15-16)


However, this whole discussion came up because Radiyah was trying to say may be she misexpressed (she is not here I m trying to see what she meant but as a Muslim I think I can), that the bible was physically authored by human beings, average human beings, <b>whereas the Quran was transmitted from Allah to mankind through Prophet Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam</b>. This was her point. She meant to say that Messengers and Prophets are well selected by Allah to carry out their mission of calling to Allah.


Now let me just indicated this point:


<b>A lie is "a false statement deliberately presented as being true". Jesus believed what he said to be true, therefore what he said wasn't a lie. But if we assume Jesus was referring to His return on the day of final judgement (an assumption not all Christians make), then he obviously made a mistake (which is not a sin).
</b>


How can a god, part of god, son of god any entity related to god (i am trying to cover all adjectives u believe in as ronniv once said he is god, son of god, part of god, of divine nature) makes a mistake?????????


Just ponder reepi before trying to go into discussing sub details


BTW wel_mel I agree with reepi the quote is not a lie but rather an evidence, a proof that he has nothing to do with being of a divine nature....


<b>He physically said son of man Sobhan Allah they cannt see this
</b>

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

wel_mel_2 wrote:
A lie is "a false statement deliberately presented as being true".  Jesus believed what he said to be true, therefore what he said wasn't a lie.  But if we assume Jesus was referring to His return on the day of final judgement (an assumption not all Christians make), then he obviously made a mistake (which is not a sin).


Jesus also said:


"But about that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, not even the Son; only the Father."  Mark 13:32


So, Jesus never claimed to know when the final judgement would take place.


In any case, we are discussing the Koran and hadith, not the Bible.  What does the Bible have to do with the Muslim belief that Prophets are without sin???  Obviously, the Bible states the exact opposite:  all people (except Jesus) have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.


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Here is a question to ponder:


Q: If a Muslim eats pork, has he made a mistake, or committed a sin?

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of course he was referring to his coming back, what else you guess he was referring to ?


and now according to your own admission that mistakes are not considered to be sins, then all the prophets of God are sinless because they've done mistakes as any other human being but their mistakes were not intentionally.


<b>and point to ponder (off topic) , if Jesus pbuh never claimed to know when the final judgment would take place that is clear proof that he is not God.</b>


REGARDING THE BIBLE: you always say all prophets except Jesus have sinned according to the Bible, it is you who brought the bible issue here not me. and since you are comparing your beliefs with ours, then you have to accept our comparison as well and look into your OWN BIBLE and you will see that Jesus clearly have sinned. and if the previous bible references i gave you are not enough. then you have to explain the following:


John 18:20 - When being questioned by the high priest, Jesus answered, "I <b>spake openly</b>
to the world; I have <b>ever</b>
** taught in the synagogues and in the temple, and in secret have I <b>said nothing</b>
."


Here he told two lies. For example, the Sermon on the Mount, perhaps his most famous sermon was delivered neither in a synagogue nor in the temple but on a mountain top (Matthew 5:1.) In Matthew 16:20 he warns his disciples <b>not to tell anyone</b> that he was the Messiah. In other words, <b>Keep it a secret</b>.


can you see ? what he preach he dont practice!! this is not our Jesus peace be upon him.


I Thessalonians 4:15-17 - In his first Epistle to the Thessalonians the Apostle Paul told a whopper when he assured the congregation that the second coming of Jesus is very near. " . . . <b>we </b>
who are alive, . . . shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we <b>who are alive </b>
and remain shall be caught up together . . ."


Revelation 22:7, 12, 20 - Jesus says, "Behold, I come quickly."


Almost two thousand years have passed, all those who knew him are long dead, yet Jesus’ promise of a quick return remains unfulfilled. I think it’s time to acknowledge that either the New Testament Gospels are fiction or that Jesus flat-out lied***


so if you consider the above statements are mistakes NOT SINS then we do consider that ALL prophets including Jesus have made mistakes and not SINS.


peace


Wael.

[Muslimah]

Radiyah wrote:
If the prophets are sinless, then how do Muslims explain hadith and passages from the koran such as the following:

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Bismillah


Peace reepi


Insh a Allah I will ask Allah to Assist me much to try and shed light on this part which is an important one. For this purpose I will try and take a point by point so just be patient. I know u didnt mention surat 94 however, it is one of the surats brought by non Muslims also in the same sense.


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Bismillah


Praise be to Allah, Glory be to Allah, may Allah Expand my chest, Facilitate my matter and untie a knot in my tongue so that they may understand what I am saying, prayer and peace be upon our leader, teacher and Messenger Mohamed Ibn Abdullah, his household and companions.


As for the Surat of 94, with all due respect to Yusuf Ali and his explanation may Allah reward him much for his effort and Overlooks his mistakes. However, the Surah is starting with reminding Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam with the bounty of Allah bestowed on him with expanding his chest, which carries both a literal physical meaning and a metaphorical one. For Allah Sobhanhu wa Ta`la actually Expanded his chest through receiving the message, light of faith and responsibility of Prophet hood.


This is on the metaphorical part which also includes the expansion of chest that happens to one as a result of believing in the Oneness of Allah and finally finding the light after a long time of walking alone hitting walls in search for the truth.


In terms of the second Ayah which talks about putting down the Wizr. The word Wizr in Arabic means burden, tiresome, load, ..etc. This word as being put here after the expansion of the chest that occurred due believing refers to the burden Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam was suffering throughout his course of searching for the truth. He used to spend nights in the cave searching for Allah and the truth. So this is one burden that was put off his shoulders after the expansion of the chest through the message and belief. The other burden also was the major support Allah Granted Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam in order to empower him to assume Prophet hood responsibilities that were major. Those were a real source of burden and could be for any human being unless Allah Grants the required Support. As such, now those two burdens are lifted with the utmost Grace of Allah. They have nothing to do with struggling against sins. The third meaning born in this Ayah which is at the same time correlated with the other one of Verily we have granted three a manifest victory (4866)


2. That God may forgive thee (4867


It refers to the sins he might have committed before receiving the Message being living among the pagans. Although he never prostrated to an idol and never prayed to them. It is worth noting here, that Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam was always a Muslim, he used to follow the faith of Ibraheem. But he had minor issues which Allah Forgave. The evidence on this is the much prayer he used to perform during night and when Aaesha asked him how come you do all this when you are sure that Allah Forgave your past sins. He said shouldn’t I be a grateful servant?


On the physical part (regarding the expansion of chest), Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam when he was about 10 years old while playing with his lactation brother Abdullah as narrated in the story included in this email. The two men actually took off a black clot responsible for envy, grudge and hatred and replaced them with mercy and kindness.


In this part I have a very special opinion and Allah Knows best. Allah through this practical operation Wills to show mankind that it is possible for us to get rid of those harmful characteristics if only we wanted to. Having Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam subjected to a physical operation was for us to learn that every human being could have such parts in his/her heart and it is up to us to get rid of them and if we wanted Allah Shall easily remove them. It does not of course have to be through a physical surgery like this one. But the surgery was performed in this manner to stand as evidence and teaching aid. Allah Is Telling us O mankind each one has these maladies and I Can remove them. Work on removing them and I will Help. Through the mercy and kindness which were inserted into Mohamed’s salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam heart, he was capable of handling difficult situations (they were part of the tools of Prophet hood), treat poor and orphans’ kindly and so forth.


Now the parts which were removed had nothing to do with an inherited tendency for sins from Adam but rather as I explained evil, grudge and hatred.


As Muslims we must strive to get rid of such black clots if they are available rather than fostering them and letting them grow.


In completion to this issue in particular which is an important one, on a later stage after he received the message, during his night trip to Al Aqsa, he was subjected again for a chest surgery. Only at this time, Jebreel opened his chest and filled it with light and wisdom.


What can we conclude from this? We may conclude that one can never receive the wisdom from Allah which is described in Quran as major bounty unless the heart is totally free from envy, grudge and hatred.


And Allah Knows best.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam reepi


Just to stress an important point here, I m sure Wel_mel already mentioned but just in case.


Although the Ayah is talking about forgiving the Messenger's sins which as we explained took place before he received the message, yet u might like to know what he was titled before he became a Messenger? They called him the truth sayer and the trustworthy. They trusted him for matters and he never betrayed the trust. He never told a lie no wonder they called him so. But as soon as he became a Messenger they refused to believe him.


Let me stay on topic.


reepi I fully understand your point, yes in Quran Allah Say what means that Adam disobeyed Allah and was tempted.


But as I explained to u I guess on my first post on this thread, that was for children of Adam to be advantaged with the possibility to repent, unlike satan who acted arrogant.


Yes as I explained also before that Yunus was punished but for what? not a sin, just he left the people he was assigned for without Allah's permission.


I dont want to go repetitve.