Original Sin

[ronniv93]

Moving the discussion here, lifutushi.

Original sin.


"Original sin" is frequently and properly used to denote only the moral corruption of their whole nature inherited by all men from Adam. This inherited moral corruption consists in, (1) the loss of original righteousness; and (2) the presence of a constant proneness to evil, which is the root and origin of all actual sin.


It influences and depraves the whole man, and its tendency is still downward to deeper and deeper corruption, there remaining no recuperative element in the soul. It is a total depravity, and it is also universally inherited by all the natural descendants of Adam (Rom. 3:10-23; 5:12-21; 8:7).

If you just look around the world, you can see that things aren't getting better over time. People become more and more corrupt and evil as time goes by.


Anyway, as to those who lived before Jesus: There were the Jews and the Gentiles; basically people were grouped this way.


We believe that even though Jesus had not appeared physically as the sacrifice for sins, God's revelation from the time of Adam and Eve onward POINTED TO Jesus. They developed faith IN the coming Messiah.


It is still all about FAITH. For without FAITH it is impossible to please God. You have to 1) Believe that He exists and 2) Believe that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. So, anyway, Jews were saved by this faith.


Now, Gentiles, those who worshipped idols and false gods.... I don't claim to be able to describe or explain how God judges each and every individual. But I *DO KNOW* that God has placed evidence of Himself throughout the earth so that EVERY MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE. There is enough evidence within creation to demonstrate that there is a Creator - One God of Heaven and Earth. So, to those who worshipped false gods or multipe gods... I believe they went to hell, yes.


Now, if people believed in the One God, I believe that God was able to reveal more abut Himself to those individuals so that they could come to a SAVING FAITH in Him. Because, of course, it takes more than just believing in One God to see heaven. Even the devil believes there is One God; there is nothign to brag about with that.

[Dan]

Bismillah


In Christianity, weren't the gates of heaven closed until Jesus was resurrected? Where were these souls before heaven was opened to mankind again?


Thanks

[ronniv93]

Dan, you've asked a pretty deep question, here. :-)


Well, I don't know anything about the "gates of heaven being closed". Never heard a phrasing like that about the gates being "closed", however....


From what I do know, prior to Christ, souls went to a place that was generally known as the place of the dead - Hades. Then, there were 2 parts of it, separated by a huge gulf: One was for the souls accepted by God (also known as "Abraham's Bosom") and one for those who were to be condemned.


After Christ's resurrection, those good souls were brought out and went on to heaven, where they remain to this day.


I don't know as much about all of this as I should, admittedly, but I've given the

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


''The conflicting Messiah beliefs


Christians believe the Messiah - a Jew from Nazareth called Jesus - came 2,000 years ago, and after dying and being resurrected, will someday return to redeem the world. Jews say the Messiah has yet to arrive.


Rabbi Greenberg suggested the dispute be tabled until the Messiah arrives.


When the Messiah comes, Jews and Christians "can ask him if this is his first coming or his second," finally putting the issue to rest. "


Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:


Narrated Abu Huraira:


Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Sorry here again.


The name of this thread is original sin. What I have read so far are how sinful human beings are, overall.


So is there another 'original sin' that is connected with the first people and that only can be deleated by belief in the sacrifice to be able to not go to hell?


Are there TWO original sins?

[ronniv93]

Check the quotation part of my 1st post again, umm_Zachariah. It explains what "Original Sin" means.


There are not 2 "original sins".


What the term actually refers to is the fact that all people born into the world are born with a NATURE of tendency towards sin. Men are also born with the awareness of a separation between themselves and God. We recognize that we are not as holy and pure and righteous as the All-Righteous Creator.


This "sin nature" is inherited. One can no more help being born with this tendency towards sin than they can help what skin color or eye color they are born with. It is inherited... passed down from one person to the next.


Initially, Adam and Eve had perfect communion with God... they spoke with Him directly, one-on-one.


Man's sins and sinful natures are what block our fellowship WITH God.


Thus, you don't see people today having the same kind of fellowship with God that Adam and Eve had. A few throughout history have been so fortunate, but not many.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


''What the term actually refers to is the fact that all people born into the world are born with a NATURE of tendency towards sin. Men are also born with the awareness of a separation between themselves and God.''


I see. So it is like everyone has inherited a sinful behaviour or tendency, according to Christianity?


The Islamic belief can be easily understood since it makes sense that Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is Merciful and Protector. That He does not burden us with something we cannot be aware of when we are born. We come to this world innocent. He gives us the ability to start from 0 when we are born. We are not born like we are supposed to be sinful already from start. THAT is showing Mercy to His creation.


What you may say about sin, I would probably say that there is Shaytan, the Devil, around and trying to make people to make sins, and he accomplishes that too if one is not careful. But we are not created sinful, that would not be Merciful at all.


Does it mean that the Christian belief is that people are also a part of Shaytan as well as God?


The second sentense is also very alien in Islam, since Fitrah is about recognizing our Creator from start. And we are separated in that sense that we have a Creator and we are His creations. The Creator cannot be a part of His creation. But we can see signs of Him and His creations everywhere.


''Man's sins and sinful natures are what block our fellowship WITH God.''


What does this MEAN?