Discussion on Jesus

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace ronniv


since we decided to be more strict on the topic relevancy issue, I brought my comment here.


"There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Of course, you know that. God in 3 Persons. Each had their role. Looking at the original language of the Genesis account and the context used, it is God the Father who is referenced. Jesus had His own roles in creation as did the Holy Spirit."


This is what u said on the thread of Prophet Mohamed's (salla Allah A`lyhee wa sallam)


Thus u dont worship one god but three. Can u see what we are trying to tell u ronniv and what Quran is explaining?

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Not to put burdens on, but to put my thoughts in this.


For me Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and the Creator is the One and Only. It tells me what He is capable of doing. There cannot be any misunderstandings concerning that.


Read this very fundamental and beautiful Surah from the Qur'an,


''Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;



Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;


And there is none like unto Him.''


The Qur'an 112:1-4


The clearness of this is astonishing, but also gives no room for misinterpretation.


A begotten child must be of the same nature as his father, and if God would have begotten a child He therefore would not be UNIQUE - THE ONE AND ONLY.


If He begets He will not be the CREATOR of everything.


Ronniv wrote,


"There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Of course, you know that. God in 3 Persons. Each had their role. Looking at the original language of the Genesis account and the context used, it is God the Father who is referenced. Jesus had His own roles in creation as did the Holy Spirit."


Genesis is one of the books in Torah, how come that Jews that read and follow this book never have understood that God is three, a trinity or a tri-unity (astaghfirullah) and not One? Why do they insist on that ''Oh hear Israel, the Lord is one...'? They do not even acknowledge Isa, peace be upon him, as a Prophet, any lesser as Messiah? (astaghfirullah) Does not this bring the alarm clock to start ringing?

[ronniv93]

Thus u dont worship one god but three. Can u see what we are trying to tell u ronniv and what Quran is explaining?

No, I don't. Well, let me put it like this: I *UNDERSTAND* what Islam is teaching, I simply don't agree. The fact that Muslims view it as 3 different gods has no bearing on the fact that I *DON'T* believe in 3 different gods.


I see it as no more of a contradiction than the fact that I am 1 person, yet I have 3 aspects to my being: Body, Spirit and Soul (or mind/will/emotions). I am not saying that this describes God Himself, nevertheless, the fact that I can understand this concept at a human level means that it is NOT a contradiction in ideas.


You may conclude in your mind that I am a polytheist; I can do nothing about that. So long as I believe I am worshipping and believing as the Bible teaches, then that is sufficient enough for me.

[Dan]

Bismillah


I'm not about to get into the trinity thing. Being a former x-tian myself, it is difficult for muslims to understand what x-tains feel is not contraditory. Just as none of us muslims here are scholars, neither (I am assuming) are there x-tian scholars here. This might be why many times chances of understanding get missed due to our general lack of knowledge. Maybe.


I also wanted to point out a weakness in this statement:


"So long as I believe I am worshipping and believing as the Bible teaches, then that is sufficient enough for me."


These are the same thoughts that terrorists who blow up themselves and others have. This is equivilent to stating that only our own personal morality matters. If that was true then there would not be prisons for criminally insane people. They view their actions and thoughts as regular and acceptable but others do not percieve them as such.


R- I know this is not what you are trying to say so I thought I would point it out first so it would not be snatched up to be used against you. Just trying to do my job of keeping discussions focused.


Stepping out.


Dan

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


ronniv well, but u said that God the father is responsible about creation yet Jesus has some sort of role in this also. Ok who created Jesus? The father or holy spirit? how did it work? how did they manage not to conflict responsibilites and decision?


I have another set of questions but will keep them till u respond here I prefer to take things step by step we are not here to fight or push.

[ronniv93]

These are the same thoughts that terrorists who blow up themselves and others have. This is equivilent to stating that only our own personal morality matters. If that was true then there would not be prisons for criminally insane people. They view their actions and thoughts as regular and acceptable but others do not percieve them as such.

Hi there, Dan.


The reason why this would argument could never work in my case, though, is that my stated belief in no way causes PHYSICAL HARM, THREAT or DAMAGE to anyone else's person.


Now, if I said that I believed in the Trinity and ALSO that all others must believe the same thing that I do or else be killed according to Biblical doctrine, then YES, that argument would apply.


Another reason this would not work is that I am <b><i>not</i></b> basing this upon my personal moral beliefs. That would be a "New Age" type of person or an atheist perhaps. I mean, unless you want to say that any person who follows any belief-set in the world (i.e. Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.) is following their own personal moral beliefs.....


You and I both believe at least 1 thing in common and that is that God has revealed Himself and knowledge about Himself to mankind. We may disagree about what we believe He has revealed. But we believe in what's called SPECIAL REVELATION. And we believe that our respective Books (Bible & Quran) are the written accounts of that revelation. We follow what's there in those Books to the best of our knowledge and abilities.


So, it's not a "personal morality" I've established but what God has revealed about Himself.

[ronniv93]

ronniv well, but u said that God the father is responsible about creation yet Jesus has some sort of role in this also. Ok who created Jesus? The father or holy spirit? how did it work? how did they manage not to conflict responsibilites and decision?

Muslimah,


No one created Jesus, according to Biblical teachings. He always has been in existence as He is part of the Godhead Itself, so there is no beginning or end to Him.


There is no conflict because it is God we are talking about. There is perfect unity. If you keep looking at it as "3 separate gods", then yes, you will have questions about how they didn't conflict with each other. That's the problem the Greeks had with all their gods. Each "god" had a story: They got jealous of one another, stole each other's wives, fought each other, etc., etc.


I don't believe in 3 totally different or separated entities. I believe in Tri-Unity, thus there is no space or room for conflict. There is ONE ESSENCE; one DIVINE ESSENCE. It would be like a person fighting onesself. That would be silly, wouldn't it?

I have another set of questions but will keep them till u respond here I prefer to take things step by step we are not here to fight or push.

Thanks! :-) That does become a problem at times, when a person is trying to respond to multiple points or questions from multiple people.

[lifutushi]

assalamualaikum and peace...


ronniv, it seems like you know much of your faith. so can i ask you some questions? don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to mock your faith or whatsoever. i've no interest in doing so. it's just some honest questions.


firstly, i don't really understand the concept of original sin. what i don't understand the most is, what happened to those people lived before Jesus (pbuh)? would they go straight to hell? or is there some exception to them since they never knew Jesus (pbuh)

[ronniv93]

Hey lifutushi,


I'm a little nervous about this and we have to take this "offline" (i.e, PM messages). I know this site is not intended to discuss the Bible or Christian beliefs in-depth, so I'll try to at least give you a direct answer in as short a manner as possible about what I believe.

<b>Original sin.</b>
"Original sin" is frequently and properly used to denote only the moral corruption of their whole nature inherited by all men from Adam. This inherited moral corruption consists in, (1) the loss of original righteousness; and (2) the presence of a constant proneness to evil, which is the root and origin of all actual sin.


It influences and depraves the whole man, and its tendency is still downward to deeper and deeper corruption, there remaining no recuperative element in the soul. It is a total depravity, and it is also universally inherited by all the natural descendants of Adam (Rom. 3:10-23; 5:12-21; 8:7).

If you just look around the world, you can see that things aren't getting better over time. People become more and more corrupt and evil as time goes by.


Anyway, as to those who lived before Jesus: There were the Jews and the Gentiles; basically people were grouped this way.


We believe that even though Jesus had not appeared physically as the sacrifice for sins, God's revelation from the time of Adam and Eve onward POINTED TO Jesus. They developed faith IN the coming Messiah.


It is still all about FAITH. For without FAITH it is impossible to please God. You have to 1) Believe that He exists and 2) Believe that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. So, anyway, Jews were saved by this faith.


Now, Gentiles, those who worshipped idols and false gods.... I don't claim to be able to describe or explain how God judges each and every individual. But I *DO KNOW* that God has placed evidence of Himself throughout the earth so that EVERY MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE. There is enough evidence within creation to demonstrate that there is a Creator - One God of Heaven and Earth. So, to those who worshipped false gods or multipe gods... I believe they went to hell, yes.


Now, if people believed in the One God, I believe that God was able to reveal more abut Himself to those individuals so that they could come to a SAVING FAITH in Him. Because, of course, it takes more than just believing in One God to see heaven. Even the devil believes there is One God; there is nothign to brag about with that.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


There is a new available place here called ''Discussions of belief'', these issues can easily be forwarded there. In that case I can also join in discussions, if it is not meant to be a priviate PM discussion one