Allah's Description Of Those Who Ascribe A Son

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom peace to others


I will combine the other Ayahs regarding how Quran explain about people of the book who rejected the faith although they know it is the truth here and I will change the title Insh a Allah


"Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?" (Quran 2:75)


"And indeed, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.


" (Quran 2:87)


"And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers." (Quran 2:89)


The underlined part could be better translated as they used to sort of show off to the non beliver with the knowledge they had about the expected Messenger whom they denied when he appeared just out of jealousy and stubroness.


"And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah (i.e. Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the Scripture threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know!


" (Quran 2:101)


"Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ which are written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)].


" (Quran 2:146)


"Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.


" (Quran 3;19)


"O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayaat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ present in the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth) * O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"


." (Quran 3:70-71)


I think these are enough Ayahs I prefer not to flood the thread with more for people to be able to read and comprehend. The point is made Alhamdulelah.

[ronniv93]

"Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?" (Quran 2:75)

Yet there is no proof of this anywhere. The only place that such a thing is noted is in the Quran.

"And indeed, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.
" (Quran 2:87)

Jesus was never "supported" by Gabriel? What does that even mean? The only thing recorded about Gabriel is that he announced the birth of Jesus to Mary. What type of support do Muslims think Gabriel gave to Jesus?


And Gabriel has <b>NEVER</b> been known as or referred to as the Holy Spirit.

"And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers." (Quran 2:89)

This passage is totally void of any meaning to a Christian or Jew. Because.... the Quran, here, makes the claim that it is <b>CONFIRMING</b> what <b>IS</b> with them - the Torah and Gospel. However, according to modern-day Islamic belief, both were already corrupted and distorted by the time of Muhammad, hence the need to "restore" the original messages.


So, how can Jews or Christians be "cursed" for disbelieving when the Quran itself says that it IS CONFIRMING their Books, yet it contradicts them at every turn?


Why would Allah say this if he already knew that the books were no longer in their original form?

"And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah (i.e. Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the Scripture threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know!
" (Quran 2:101)

Here again is the same thing. How can they "throw behind their backs" any Book if the <b>REAL</b> books were already gone? In terms of Islamic belief, it should be a good thing that they threw them away since these would have been the corrupted versions anyway, right?

"Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ which are written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)].
" (Quran 2:146)

But we DON'T recognize Muhammad. There ARE NO descriptions of Muhammad in the Bible and AGAIN.... Why would Allah appeal to books that <b>HE</b> should have known were corrupt anyway?

"O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayaat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ present in the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth) * O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"
." (Quran 3:70-71)

Same thing again. There is nothing about Muhammad in the Torah or the Gospel.


And we disbelieve because on one-hand, the Quran claims to be confirming our books yet in reality, it contradicts it. So AGAIN... Why does Allah appeal to our "false scriptures"?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


i am so surprised on how u can not understand the verses. Re read may be u can understand the next time.

[ronniv93]

Why did you assume that the problem is my understanding?


I couldn't make a comment or ask a question if I didn't understand what was being said. Better yet, if I didn't understand, I would have simply said, "Hey, I don't understand this. Can you explain it?"


I DO IN FACT understand what the passages are saying and I am <b>questioning the 1) reasoning, 2) support behind and 3) validity</b> of those passages.


Again I ask... What is <b>UP</b> with the superiority complex around here? Was there really no other possible explanation (in your mind) for my questions OTHER THAN that I must not have understood???


To me, the Quran, at least in the English translations, are written at almost a 3rd-grade reading level; VERY simple/simplistic. It is NOT that hard to read it (except for the vague passages that even Muslims themselve have a hard time explaining or understanding).

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


just in case u missed it


""Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) <b>used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?" </b>(Quran 2:75)


to settle this ronniv I was not looking for discussion but merely presenting how Quran state the change in the books.


u dont believe in Quran this is your problem we do Alhamdulelah

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Dear sister Muslimah, forgive me for AGAIN come jumping into this thread. I said I would drop this, but on second thought I will make an last attempt. Why I don't know, Allah oalem. Maybe I am 'stubborn' ?


Wasalam


Ronniv,


Some thoughts to the verses that you commented.


The Qur’an 2 :75


<i>‘’Yet there is no proof of this anywhere. The only place that such a thing is noted is in the Quran.’’</i>


You are still denying the Islamic TEACHING – this can be read in the Revelation that contains 100 percent revealed words of Allah, SWT. You can continue to deny since you do not believe. Ronniv, if you continue this opposing struggle, how do you suppose you shall understand? You cannot understand if you don't believe, that standpoint you should comprehend?


The Qur’an 2:87


I repeat,


‘’…And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]…’



To this you reply ‘’<i> Jesus was never "supported" by Gabriel? What does that even mean? The only thing recorded about Gabriel is that he announced the birth of Jesus to Mary. What type of support do Muslims think Gabriel gave to Jesus?</i>


And Gabriel has NEVER been known as or referred to as the Holy Spirit.’’


Reread the verse again Ronniv, ‘SUPPORTED HIM WITH RUH-UL-QUDUS’ reflect on that again – it does not say what you say.


You are mixing things up here, there is NO holy spirit in Islam, this expression is a unity in the trinity in Christianity, it has NOTHING to do with Islam. You cannot take one expression from Christianity and then just lift if over to Islam, and interpret it the way you are used to. Then you will not understand anything, and it is where you seem to be now, you try to put doctrines from your belief and suite them into Islam – but never is that applicable.


The Qur’an 2:89


My understanding about the references to His earlier scriptures is that He is telling us to believe in that it is HE that came with the revelations. That we shall not doubt that He has sent us revelations. And He does not tell us anything here about the STATUS of the earlier revelations. May Allah, SWT guide me if I have understood this wrongly and forgive me.


<i>‘’ So, how can Jews or Christians be "cursed" for disbelieving when the Quran itself says that it IS CONFIRMING their Books, yet it contradicts them at every turn?’’</i>


Read part of the verse again – ‘’ although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers."



If you read this again, and ponder about it, maybe you see WHY Allah, SWT calls them disbelievers and the reason WHY He curses them.


This verse has nothing to do with ‘confirming’ earlier scriptures, it is about something else. This is a very usual ‘misunderstanding’ that many anti-Islamic sources use. If you are sincere, try to look at the verse instead.


The Qur’an 2:101


What I understand this is about the Qur’an and nothing else, confirming here means confirming or 'repeating' some truths from earlier revelations, but they that recoqnize the truth of the Qur’an, has chosen not to believe in it. In spite of that they know it is the Truth.


The Qur’an 2:146


<i>‘’ But we DON'T recognize Muhammad. There ARE NO descriptions of Muhammad in the Bible and AGAIN.... Why would Allah appeal to books that HE should have known were corrupt anyway?’’</i>


That is the problem. There ARE descriptions of Muhammad, saws in the Bible, and perhaps there have been even clearer one’s in the revelations? How can WE be sure of that, since most Christians themselves today admit that the Bible is not 100 percent word of God, so how can you KNOW something when you don’t have the whole picture? But the One that sent the revelations Knows, and therefore we also know, IF we care to listen to Him.


The Qur’an 3:70-71


<i>‘’ Same thing again. There is nothing about Muhammad in the Torah or the Gospel.’’</i>


Your word against the Revealed words of Allah, SWT.


<i>‘’ And we disbelieve because on one-hand, the Quran claims to be confirming our books yet in reality, it contradicts it. So AGAIN... Why does Allah appeal to our "false scriptures"?’’</i>


Yes YOU disbelieve in the Qur’an, yes Allah, SWT confirms His earlier REVELATIONS, that they come from Him. It has nothing to do with confirming the RSV or the KJV as the look today. You must distinguish between REVELATION and rewritten or translated books.


<i>‘’ Why did you assume that the problem is my understanding?’’</i>


It surely look that way. Why I don’t know, do you?


<i>‘’ To me, the Quran, at least in the English translations, are written at almost a 3rd-grade reading level; VERY simple/simplistic. It is NOT that hard to read it (except for the vague passages that even Muslims themselve have a hard time explaining or understanding).’’</i>


I agree, they are very simple. As you say ‘they are not hard to read’, even I understand them that do not have English as my native language. BUT when you READ you must also REFLECT and PONDER about what you read, otherwise you will not UNDERSTAND, no matter how simple the text is that is before you.


Ronniv, do you REALLY want to understand, or is your aim another one? To me it begins to look like another one… And we have gone well on so far. What path shall we take from here? Any suggestions? Shall we close up or study Islam from the startingpoint 0, where we don't have any large anti-package-towards-Islam with us? To me is begins to be only these two choices since nothing that is there in-between seems to clear things up for you. WHY? - only Allah, SWT Knows that.


Regards

[ronniv93]

Reread the verse again Ronniv, ‘SUPPORTED HIM WITH RUH-UL-QUDUS’ reflect on that again – it does not say what you say.
You are mixing things up here, there is NO holy spirit in Islam, this expression is a unity in the trinity in Christianity, it has NOTHING to do with Islam. You cannot take one expression from Christianity and then just lift if over to Islam, and interpret it the way you are used to.

I am doing no such thing, umm_Zachariah. If there truly is no such term as "holy spirit" in Islam, then I guess the people at these Muslim web sites need to know that:


Studying Islam


Islam Online


I have used both sites in my studies on the religion. They seem to both say that there IS a term "holy spirit" (of course that is a translation) but that it refers to Jibreel in Islam.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Ronniv, you are NOT listening nor reading what I wrote, what YOU call the holy spirit it NOT what I call the holy spirit. I repeat YOU try to put Christian doctrines in the teachings of Islam, and that is the reason why you do not understand it.


So what I wrote was ''You are mixing things up here, there is NO holy spirit in Islam, this expression is a unity in the trinity in Christianity, it has NOTHING to do with Islam. ''


Just read AND ponder again, please. Maybe I did not put the words in right order, but I think it is anyway very clear that the holy spirit that you speak about is not the same as in Islam. YOU call the holy spirit a UNITY in the trinity, don't you? What has that to do with Jibreel? IT IS NOT THE SAME. I cannot put it more simply than this.


So when I did not express myself well, you drag all Muslims on 'these Muslim sites' into my writings, well that does not seem very fair at all. You come onto me if you have complaints, not to others. This is the right way to go.


But I do think you know well what I was saying, but you choose to ignore.


Ronniv, your choice again, it is only you that can decide what is best for you, since you will not allow Allah, SWT to guide you.


Regards

[ronniv93]

Okay, this getting BEYOND frustrating. Whew!!!


Umm_Zachariah,


What did I say in my post that led you to think or believe that I was somehow inserting my Christian beliefs into this topic of the "holy spirit"?


All I said was this:


And Gabriel has NEVER been known as or referred to as the Holy Spirit.


I said nothing about my personal beliefs about the Holy Spirit, according to the Bible. Only that the angel Gabriel has never been referred to by this TITLE.


I said nothing about a Trinity or a Unity or however you wish to put it.


But you know what? On <b>THIS</b> particular item, let's just drop it, because I am truly getting frustrated by the whole matter and it was a 2% issue, at best, anyway.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Ronniv, I would not call it frustration, I rather call it 'talking for ears that do not hear'.


Truly your belief's are not easy to comprehend, but I was talking about Christianity, and what it teaches. And you have anyway clearly put yourself in that belief.


And it was a result of your,


<i>''What did I say in my post that led you to think or believe that I was somehow inserting my Christian beliefs into this topic of the "holy spirit"?</i>


All I said was this:


And Gabriel has NEVER been known as or referred to as the Holy Spirit.''


Since you wrote NEVER with capital letters it is the Christian belief you expose. Since the holy spirit in Christianity is a unity in the trinity called God. One third of God. Frustrating? I agree.


I also agree on this, let's drop this, since you picked out an issue of 2 percent as you said, and seem to have taken no notice in of the rest of the percentage. So I truly feel I have done what I can. You have to do SOME work yourself, IF you are genuine in your search. We all have done that - as they say ''nothing in life comes easy'' I would add to that - only if you let it.


Regards