Allah's Description Of Those Who Ascribe A Son

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace


Look how Allah Is describing the consequence of what u simply said and tried to correct Anya and warning him against what he ascribed to u. Anya spoke as a Muslim man. Remember this is an Islamic board and we hold our beliefs highly for we are sure it is the truth. Just look at how the Quran which is the word of Allah is explaining how disastrous it is to ascribe a son to Allah. No matter how u explain it. Plus as far as I remember well I directly asked u on another thread who is Jesus to u is he the lord or son of Lord. U said he is all of that plus saviour, …ect. These set of Noble Ayah’s of Quran sums up all the options u made about Prophet Eassa salla Allah a`lyhee wa salla who simply has nothing to do with all of this, but rather he is totally free of any responsibility he never called people to worship him.


“They say: (God) Most Gracious has begotten a son!* Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!* At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth To split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,* At it the skies are ready to burst, That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious.* For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that he should beget a son.” (Quran 19: 88-92)


“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. say: who then hath the least power against God, if his will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every one that is on the earth? for to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. he createth what he pleaseth. for God hath power over all things.” (Quran 5:17)


“They do blaspheme who say: God is Christ the son of Mary but said Christ: O children of Israel worship God, my lord and your lord whoever joins other gods with God, God will forbid him the garden, and the fire will be his abode. there will for the wrong doers be no one to help.* They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God. if they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.” (Quran 5: 72-73)


“They say: God hath begotten a son: glory be to him. nay, to him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to him” (Quran 2:116)


“Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. his mother was a woman of truth. they had both to eat their (daily) food. see who God doth make his signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth” (Quran 5:75)


“And behold God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God? he will say: glory to thee never could I say what I had no right (to say). had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in thine. for thou knowest in full all that is hidden.* Never said I to them aught except what thou didst command me to say, to wit, worship God, my lord and your lord; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when thou didst take me up thou wast the watcher over them, and thou art a witness to all things.” (Quran 5:116-117)


“The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; he created him from dust, then said to him: Be: and he was.” (Quran 3:59)


I think now the situation is very clear to u.

[ronniv93]

Muslimah,


I was not trying to "jump on" Anya as you said in the other thread. Merely correcting him. And even before it came to "correcting" him, I said, <b>IF</b> this is what you are saying, Anya....


So, it seemed like he was saying one thing about me and my beliefs and <b>IF</b> that were true, then I was correcting that.


Sometimes I feel that you all don't REALLY, TRULY read and comprehend what I am saying at all. That is perhaps the most frustrating thing of all around here. I CLEARLY, ALREADY explained myself in the post that I made.


I WAS SPECIFICALLY REFUTING THE IDEA OF GOD HAVING SOME SORT OF <b>PHYSICAL RELATIONS</b> WITH ANY HUMAN WOMAN TO PRODUCE A BIOLOGICAL CHILD.


I also CLEARLY STATED that the term "Son of God" is a <b>TITLE</b>.


I don't think any of this is too hard to understand.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Ronniv,


If you BELIEVE that 'son of God' is a title, and that does not imply anything else, then that is what Islam teaches us. Even if the expression is not used in Islam.


Since this title is used for many others too Jacob, Solomon, David, even angels are called that, it make sense that the title has no divine meaning. Still the Islamic belief.


On the other hand he is also called 'son of man', and that implies NO immaculate


conception, which on the other hand goes totally against the Islamic belief. Islam teaches us that,


“When the angels said: ‘O Mary, indeed Allaah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be honored in this world and the next and will be of those close to Allaah.’ ”
Qur’an 3:45






“She said: ‘O my Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?’ He said: ‘Even so—Allaah creates what He wishes. When He decrees something, He only has to say to it: “Be!” and it is.’ ” The Qur’an, 3:47


The Qur’an clarifies that Jesus’, pbuh, virgin birth did not change the state of his humanity. His creation was like the creation of Aadam, who had neither father nor mother.


“Surely, the example of Jesus, in Allaah’s sight, is like that of Aadam. He created him from dust and said: ‘Be!’ and he was.”
Qur’an, 3:59

[ronniv93]

Ronniv,
If you BELIEVE that 'son of God' is a title, and that does not imply anything else, then that is what Islam teaches us. Even if the expression is not used in Islam.  Since this title is used for many others too Jacob, Solomon, David, even angels are called that, it make sense that the title has no divine meaning.

Well, let me be clearer. Yes it is a title but that does not mean it does not reference anything divine. Jesus clearly, in the Gospel accounts, was identified as divine. So I am not denying Jesus' divinity.

On the other hand he is also called 'son of man', and that implies NO immaculate conception, which on the other hand goes totally against the Islamic belief. Islam teaches us that,

You lost me on this one. I think you are taking this term as being literal, maybe? Anyway, couple of problems on this one:


1) Son of man does not LITERALLY mean that he was the 'son of a man.' No more than using the term "mankind" means that all people are men. Son of man was a term used in that culture, language and time in similar fashion to how we use the word "mankind". It is simply identifying a person as a human being.


2) Immaculate Conception does not mean "virgin birth" and the term "son of man" has absolutely nothing to do with either "immaculate conception" or Jesus' virgin birth. This term is a Catholic phrase that actually refers to Mary herself and reflects a Catholic belief that Mary was cleansed from all forms of sin, including Original Sin, so that she would be pure, blameless, without sin and thus qualified to birth the Messiah into the world who was to also be sinless.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Ronniv,


''So I am not denying Jesus' divinity.''


contra


''Son of man ...identifying a person as a human being.''


We better drop this subject.


''..reflects a Catholic belief that Mary was cleansed from all forms of sin''


So it is only CATHOLICS that share the Islamic belief of Mary's purity?


IF that is a condition for her virgin birth, does not Christianity teach that everyone, except Jesus, pbuh, is born sinful?


We better drop this subject too.


Just to also give a CLEAR picture of this, we can read in the Qur'an,


''When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection
from the Evil One, the Rejected."


Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity
and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah: for Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
The Qur'an 3:36-37

[ronniv93]

Umm_Zachariah,


I'd be fine with dropping the subjects as these discussions of Christianity generally lead to nowhere with Muslims, but...

''..reflects a Catholic belief that Mary was cleansed from all forms of sin''
So it is only CATHOLICS that share the Islamic belief of Mary's purity?


IF that is a condition for her virgin birth, does not Christianity teach that everyone, except Jesus, pbuh, is born sinful?

In 2 recent posts, you have quoted me but you cut off my parts of my statements. It's probably best to look at all that a person says in it's entirety.


The way my statement was chopped off changes the meaning of what I said.


You cut off the TRULY VITAL part of my statement about ORIGINAL SIN.


So, your question really does not fit in when you take my statement as a whole as opposed to cutting part of it out; it is <b>NOT</b> a requirement for Mary to be free from Original Sin in order to be the mother of the Messiah.


Christianity teaches that everyone is born in a state of "GUILT" because of sin, for all men can recognize that they are not as holy and righteous as God is. <b>ALSO</b> that man is born with a TENDENCY towards sin.


Little children, very early on in life, often start doing mischievous little things here and there, hoping they don't get caught. They know that what they're doing will bring mommy or daddy's anger, yet they try to get away with it.


If people WEREN'T born with a tendency towards sin then there would be little to zero need for parents to spank or correct or discipline or otherwise punish their children because all children would "naturally" act good.


Frankly.... I have yet to see a parent who has been able to say this about their child.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Ronniv,


You don't really need to teach me about what Christianity teaches about the original sin, I know that. But that is also why I was surprised to read what you wrote, that Catholics believe that Mary was cleansed from sin.


Truly Ronniv, this is not a straight path to look at these issues, and I appreciate that you try to explain them. It is not the first time I have discussed these issues, I have also read some, so just to spare your time and mine, you are free, according to Islam, to believe whatever you like. Your choice, as I have mentioned earlier. I will leave this issue, since it is not proper to discuss Christianity in depth here, I think it is better suited on a Christian forum. There it can be fully exploited.


You know, Islam teaches that everyone is born sinless, like an unwritten book, like a newborn baby you come to this world, with no weights on your shoulders. That make sense to me, a lot of sense. We are born innocent knowing nothing about the world around us. But from start we begin to learn, bit by bit, we stumble, we make mistakes and we can correct them. When we get a bit older and have learnt a lot, we ALSO have to begin to take responsibility for WHAT we do. THEN we are able to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong. And it is THEN, not before, that Allah, SWT begins to closely look at what we are up to.


How can you be sinful before you have the knowledge? In Islam you are not, when you have learnt and got knowledge then you take your full responsibility before Allah, SWT for what you do, or what you abstain from doing (your duties towards Him for ex like fasting).


Considering Allah, SWT is Omnipotent and Merciful, He would never burden us from start, when we have no knowledge whatsoever.


Regards

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475:


Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:


The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Umm I think the Ayahs were very clear, and I am not telling u what to do but I think discussing the issue was not even recommended. We told her exactly the situation about what she believes, we brought it from Quran in which we believe, follow and adopt. We can only say


To u is your religion and to us ours.


and in another post Insh a Allah I will quote the Ayahs describing how people of the book rejected to believe what they originally had in their own books.


peace

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Assalamu aleikum sister,


I have come to the end of the thread here, I think I have written most of what I can obtain about the subject, insha'Allah.


Good idea with the Ayahs, I think we will all look forward to be reminded of them.


Wasalam