Christian Missionary Tricks

[Doctorm]

Salams,


I am just taking out some time out of my own busy schedule to educate myself regarding Islam. I am a Muslim myself.


I came to this board regarding views on christian missionaries. A lot of sites, such as answering-islam are known for their useless polemics. Many a sites refute all their arguements, plus, they have found that site deletes verses from the Qur'an for their own needs. There are many sites like this too.


However, I would like to discuss the problem of Christian Missionaries. Here is a personal view on this matter.


I was at work the other day working at a small convenience store as a small job on the side. An African person (Might be a African American; doubt it, he had thick African Accent) came up to me and asked me what I was doing on the internet. He seemed very interested, and seemed to make a whole scene out of it. I just told him I am on a political board (Not this one..ha). He then started talking about world politics, and how he hates bush, this this and that. Anyways, he suddenly asked me, do you believe in god. I replied yes. He then asked why. I just said I was born into believing Islam, and I just stuck with it most of my life (This is actually true). At this point of time in the dicussion, I had a weak faith and poor view on other religions. I reasoned with him in mathematical terms that it was worth believing in god because of Pauli's Principle of 2 universes ( If you can't find it, do reply to this thread, and I will explain it). That's where I made my mistake, I should have said I believed in Allah strongly. However, even though I regret doing this action, I found out that actions have their results. You will see in a second.


He shifted the discussion into how Jesus's (Pbuh) blood will save all humanity. Note: At this point I did realize that is a dead-bolt arguement. Anyways, he started saying that Jesus (Pbuh) was the final Messiah, and how the angel who gave the message to Muhammed (Pbuh) was a false Angel and how Khadija forced Muhammed to believe in what is going on. I did tell him the Bible was modified and history showed it. He then said that if you changed something, you don't change the meaning but the wording. He said he had to go to get some Pizza (Pizza place next door), and he would bring me a book about this.


My take in this: This made me believe in Islam more and more. I found two interesting things. I did do extensive research on Bible and Qur'an, and found some interesting verses in the Genesis, Deutronomy, Matthew, Isiah, and John. These verses were very interesting. Before I note one verse I really liked I would like to note that many christian groups do note that the Bible is missing something after the 66th chapter, and many even claim that 99.1 to 99.7 percent of the bible is in original context (Where is original Bible? On other hand, any other Bible from other places.). At the same time, I felt that if Christianity was so clear in it's message, then why are there so many sects? For example, the missionary claims that men created confession booths. Men are evil in nature. Ok, you just accepted that men are evil in nature, then how does it stop writers of the bible from being evil. At the same time, it is MEN who wrote the Holy Books.


<b>Genesis 12:1-3 (New American Standard Bible)</b>


Anyways, here is the verse I liked.


1Now (A)the LORD said to Abram,


"Go forth from your country,


And from your relatives


And from your father's house,


To the land which I will show you;


2And (I will make you a great nation,


And ©I will bless you,


And make your name great;


And so (D)you shall be a blessing;


<b>3And (E)I will bless those who bless you,</b>


And the one who curses you I will curse


(F)And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."


Christian's debunk Muslims at every point. I believe that every single word and line from every Holy book has it's purpose (I still stand by the fact that the Bible is modified). However, if you are Christian, and believe that Bible is the word of God, then read the bold line. We revere Prophet Abraham (PBUH). At times, I believe we even revere him more than you out of respect (you may notice that I use PBUH quote a bit. Even your bible says that I will "bless those you will bless you." (God to Abraham).


Just interesting. I found some connections on how Moses is more like Muhammed, and not like Jesus, and how he fits in the prophecies in the Bible. I ignored the Paraclete arguement because it does seem a bit controversial unless someone can give me some hard evidence.


Salams,


Doctor M.

[Anyabwile]

Assalamu Alalikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh


I've made a promise to certain Christian posters on here not to speak bad of the bible and they will do the same with the Qur'an. This is so healthy debate can emerge on certain subjects. However this is an Islamic board so i shouldn't feel i can't respond on this topic from an Islamic Perspective, as otherwise this is ridiculous, it's not a Muslti Faith board it is an Islamic one so i should feel i can have my input. I'll just try and refrain from disrespectful terms, if i use any, i'm sure they will be pointed out! I will be speaking from a factual or kind of cold viewpoint on the Bible yes, because it's not a book i personally belive in. But i'll try and avoid any rudeness, if i am rude then sorry in advance but it might be best to stop reading here if you know this is going to upset you as this is an Islamic forum. So i would say <b>STOP READING HERE</b>....and i can guarantee you won't be offended. Otherwise even though i will try not to offend Christians, i can't guarantee. So to the Christians on this board who are sensive, and my Christian friend Ronni i would advise stopping here.


why are you still reading Ronni? Joke...carry on.


Anyway I just wanna gonna explain my expierience with Christians and my own as always personal research. The research is long and takes time but i don't rely on websites alone, never have. Some websites by their nature Muslim and Non Muslim are very dodgy indeed.


It was only really since i started searching for God (was Agnostic about 6 or so months ago) where i looked into the Major religions including the Bible and Christianity. And from then on my interest in the book increased, unfortunately not for the reasons of it bringing me closer to God but because the more i read on it's history and the beleifs Christians accept (Trinity, Original sin for mankind, Jesus himself was God) the more i found out these were introduced by men several hundreds of years after Jesus himself lived, concepts he himself would know nothing about. I read three or four books in a few months on the history of the bible, and what interested me most was what i was reading about the Bible, and how it had been changed was all coming from Christians. None of them said that it didn't have what they thought were the words of God in it but all of them said it has been drastically tampered with by Man, changed, re edited certain books taken out etc etc.


There is one book in particular on this subject huge, in three parts that really goes in depth on the issue. Used alongside others by a few famous Muslim scholars on the Bible. I flicked through this book with a copy of the bible i had recently digged up from the loft of my parents. And the book shows errors / contradictions so blatant that no one Christian or non Christian, Whatever race, nationality etc etc could deny them. What was interesting was the enourmously high number of errors and evidences of the blatant tampering by man, this is a Holy Book to Christians so i just didn't understand why they hadn't questioned this.


I worked at the time in a Call centre and everyday i'd take the books i had in, take in this bible i had and asked the points to be explained to me from a Christian perspective. I thought this is the fairest way, i worked with two knowledgable Christians and they explained to me two things, 1) the bible isn't a literal book as they thought i was taking it and 2) The errors mistakes and contradictions do not take away the message as your African friend said. One person on another occasion said she had seen the Holy Ghost in action so she didn't care what the bible said, or what i said about it. I didn't class her as a regular Christian obviously as i felt this would be unfair to do so for my research, she was interesting to speak with though. More entertaining than anything though i think.


Anyway these and other Christians spoke with me and showed me points and showed me websites where Qur'an is shown to have contradictions like the 50,000 years one and so forth. This was a strange tactic because this wasn't actually addressing the many issues in the bible, it was simply diverting it to Qur'an. But i'd found all the things which seem at first glance like contradictions in the Qur'an are wiped once you find the Arabic original and study the words individually or once you put the whole verse to the rest of section that you've plucked out, or take the verse in context to the Qur'an as a whole. It's quite easy. They would then move on to the next one they thought they could take as a contradiction and then i can explain this and it goes on and on a short while until they are satisfied, but this can't be done with the Bible to many of the serious concerns i have with it's Authenticity can't be explained. Just because of the high number of errors etc. I mean the erros and such aren't what i'm really interested in because Christians admit some of it is written by man, although God is still supposed to be watching over them i belive, or at least he should be. But more than the errors or contradictions, it was the actual <b>real</b> history of the Bible which got me.


I know some people can take a verse out of context, so this isn't my focus in the bible as such. As that's not the point of the Bible to take it literal i understand that so i don't pick at that. It's just the history that's behind the book that fascinated me more. I mean if errors in Qur'an are thrown at me then there's several thousand more in the Bible i can pick but i'm not too interested in this, because it seems a bit nick picky. What my fascination grew to, was how people think it is a Holy book, that God has approved it, or it has the words of God in it. Not so much the errors at this point.


So the same criteria i ask them to do for Qur'an (See what original scripts says, read the entire section not one verse etc) i tried to do with the Bible ask for original hebrew scriptures or greek whatever i needed and see them explained or as far back translations as i needed and try and look into it. And i unwillingly found my self under an avalanche of exposed faults and blatant changes to a book that many belive is holy or the word of God. These were true concerns. I read more books on the subject. And more importantly didn't just read ones that seemed from an Islamic perspective because i genuinely wanted to learn but read these other books with a Bible alongside me to read the complete verses for my self...and to be honest it's completely stunned me. To the point of disbeleif, because i know for a fact many Christians haven't studied this deep enough and once you do it knocks the wind out of you what you find.


This is where i'm at right now, i've read a large number of research books on the Bible and it's history and when you see how certain Christians beleifs, Trinity, and Gods bizarre original sin curse on the whole of mankind and other beleifs Jesus is God himself walking etc etc. Once you see these concepts were introduced by certain people way way after Jesus would have known about this, and are things he never even said in the Bible, the whole thing gets uncomfortable in regards to why these people belive this. I'm still on my research on this going through a few books a month on it when i can, i read a whole heap anyway so two or so books a month is nothing to me but what i'm slowly starting to realise is exacly how the Bible is viewed to many Christians. Those who say to me "well Qur'an is this and that" i loose interest in because we discuss Qur'an when we discuss Qur'an, not at the particular time i want to discuss the Bible, that's sidestepping.


Those who say to me it is the complete word of God and i havent come across any personally but read some belive it, <b>those are the ones i'm most interested in</b>. And those who say to me it's not the actual book, it's what it represents baffle me to the maximum, but then make it easier for me to accept how some people accept Christianity and the bible.


While i'm doing my research on this and seeing the truth more blatantly as time passes, this is how i find it easier to accept in my own head how perfectly nice sane human beings accept the Bible "it's not the actual book, it's what it represents" I would leave a debate there if a Christian told me this, because this is the nature of how they want to have faith. It's totally not how i work in the slightest, but i accept some people do work like this. To them it's more about Jesus and the ideas based around him from a Christian viewpoint than the actual bible. There's in my eyes no need to really push a person who thinks this way this is how they choose to belive and no matter what facts you present to them with a bible in your hand and a massive book of 1000 people showing and explaining where the Bible has been changed etc it will mean nothing to them because they "belive" i like all good Muslims natrually would like to save all good humans from Hellfire but i can't even try with certain people, i just think of most Christians in this way i just described (those who say it's not the actual book but what it represents) and i can accept them clinging on to the Bible easier i think.


I'll PM you some books or links, i only PM and not post them here because a debate on this would really sap me right now, i'm trying to do other things right now, learning Arabic etc trying to understand verses in my own <b>book</b> and i put so much effort into debate on here, and i know i'll have to again on this soon anyway. So i'll just PM you these books and one link in particular. If you're interested fine if not fine also, i know some don't want to take it as deep as i seem to do...with everything, so cool.


And erm, sorry everyone again for the long post


Assalamu Alalikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


welcome to the board Doctorm and Insh a Allah your stay will be beneficial both ways for u and us.


However, since u clearly indicated that u need to educate yourself about Islam just like all of us. We would appreciate it if u focus on Quran, sunnah, sharia and other Islamic related issues. I am sure u know there is a lot to learn out there instead of dedicating threads to quote from the bible. Although I understand your aim here, but we can do a better job by learning Quran and sunnah. A non Muslim would be served better to read about such IsLamic issues.


Besides may be many dont know this, I already counterchecked with reverts regarding the impact of bible related threads, and they said it does not help much in the course of dawa but rather a deterance. We just had to suspend the account of a member for a week to stop such posts.


again welcome to our board Insh a Allah u will benefit from it.


Anya as for making an agreement with christian posters, we dont even have to. We know Quran is true. Let us just all focus on it.

[Anyabwile]

Wow, no more Bible threads then?, this has to be the only, or one of the only Islamic forums that does not allow threads investigating the bible from a Muslim perspective. No wonder we get regular Christians here!! I think the Christian posters on here have to give credit to Muslimah for that. Seriously. In my humble defense, this area is one of interest to me, this is why i respond, and Jesus is a Prophet of ours so...anyway MUSLIMAH YOU ARE THE BOSS WE OBEY. Although it may be a good idea for the mods to delete ths thread completely or delete my response and then lock it, or else if someone replies in detail, i would feel compelled to answer them to balance it. Just a s-suggestion.

[Doctorm]

I do agree this is a Muslim Forum, and such issues need to be addressed, however I would also like to point out that I did not want to bring about Bible bashing.


I respect Christians, and I believe that even if we do find errors, we need to uphold the dignity of their book.


Salams,


Doctor M

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


I am neither a boss nor a leader. I am a humble servant of Allah.


I will neither lock the thread nor delet it. I am also not afraid to say that bible is not the word of Allah I am a muslim remember. I know that for sure. and I will stop at this.


Yet I will not further explain my point which is clear, because I respect the hadeeth of stopping the argument in the name of Allah. Arguing for the sake of just proving one point is a means for shaytan to intercept..


I think I did explain enough why we said that. I think I said Quran and sunnah have much more to learn. let us learn that if we want to make dawa

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


I came back just to say I am not offended Anya nor upset


but also to tell u just re read my post I think u need to do that


I will borrow Dan's style which u endorsed talking to JD


Islam= Quran + Sunnah


Do we have enough threads on that? lately I felt that we have more threads on bible than Quran and sunnah


What do we or a non muslim need to learn? bible or Quran and sunnah.


Since we already know that bible is not word of Allah this is enough for us to move on to other subjects.


O boy I did explain again which is not me.


Anya u r changing mee


I will stop before getting off topic u know Dan is on prowl here.

[Anyabwile]

I will stop before getting off topic u know Dan is on prowl here.

I was thinking the same thing. He'll tell you off first not me.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


I have a good idea, sometimes topics like this produce ideas


How about looking into Quran and deriving out Ayahs that prove that they distorted the Injeel. And how we must only follow Quran.


This would be an interesting task, dont u think so?????


let us talk to them by our own book not their's


How about that????

[Dan]

Bismillah


As Salam alaikum


Grrrrrr! I AM on the prowl.


It is a personal problem and I will get over it.


This thread has sparked an idea... To the mod room, robin!


As Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu