Disbelievers Can Not Become Muslims!

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom brothers and sisters


Anya Mash a Allah I must say that really u did a good job here. Just carry on and dont busy yourself with the way a poster is making a question just put your effort on the reply


Martini first welcome to our little family yes here Mash aAllah we are like a family


Maritini u yourself is a clear example on your question. Why dont u believe? Believe in Allah The Only One Deity Who Is Worthy to worship. The One Allah Lord of the worlds, Creator of skies and earth Owner of the Day After. One Who Can not be captured by our sights but He Sees all. What is stopping u from becoming a Muslim, just in case this is the true religion. Well this is Islam is to belive in ONE ALLAH WHO WAS NOT BEGOTTEN NEITHER HE BEGET NO ONE,


HE NEVER took a wife or son, He Is Eternal, and to believe in His final Messenger Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam as a final prophet. Also to believe in all Messengers and prophets including Eassa prayer and peace be upon all of them


would u belive martini?????


Tell me what is stopping u from believing then we talk Insh a Allah

[Anyabwile]

Anya Mash a Allah I must say that really u did a good job here. Just carry on and dont busy yourself with the way a poster is making a question just put your effort on the reply

Jazakallahu khayran. Allhumdullilah, it is all Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) i've made much Dua to try and improve my communication and knowledge as i wish to be more active in Da'wah and it seems Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) is helping me. I still need to make more Dua for my Sabr however. (woooo new word Anya) Yes - you kind of pick up on these things hanging with the bro's so much.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


wow Mash a Allah the hanging is fruitful


let us wait for martini to answer my question I really want him /her to

[Martini]

I've posted similar questions on other Islamic message boards and it went horribly. I'm very happy to see that here, you are a little more tolerant of those who believe differently than you, so thank you.

Originally posted by <b>Muslimah</b>
What is stopping u from becoming a Muslim, just in case this is the true religion.

Well, first of all, I won't believe in something based on <i>in case</i>. If I'm going to believe in something its going to be based on reason, not <i>in case</i>.


Second, nothing is stopping me from becoming a muslim. The question is, what should start me in becoming a muslim?


Like I said earlier, you all seem a little more tolerant and open minded here than other sites, so I'll tell you a little about myself.


I'm first generation American and I was brought up a muslim. Everyone in my family is muslim. It was during my teenage years ( I'm now in my 30s ) that I started wondering what the Quran says, because even though my parents raised me a muslim, it was only on a very superficial level, e.g. say this prayer at night, don't eat pork, etc.


As I started reading the Quran and asking questions, my doubts grew. Then I started reading about the history of Islam and Christianity and learning more about science and reason and my doubts really grew. I can probably write an entire book giving all my reasons for being an atheist, so I won't give all my reasons here.


Even though I thank you for not being like other message boards, I still think you could open your minds a little more. Why is it that when I show you proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Quran makes it clear that non-believers can not become muslims because God has sealed thier hearts that you still argue? I show that it is also clear that by sealing hearts, God takes away free will and you still argue. When I show you (in another thread) that the Quran contradicts itself by saying that Christains and Jews will go to heaven in some suras and hell in the others, you immediately jump to the Quran's defense and say "those are comparing pre-Quranic Christians and Jews to post-Quranic Christians and Jews. The Quran clearly does not specify this, but you feel it necessary to defend the Quran, even at the cost of intellectual dishonesty. Why? Why not just admit that it does seem to be a contradiction but faith leads you to believe that somehow its not. Isn't this more honest than making up an excuse?


Do any of you here doubt the existence of God? I hope all of you keep a healthy amount of doubt about this (and everything else in life).

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace martini


thank u for replying to my question. Thus u r a clear example for the Ayah here I am calling u to Islam and u willingly say no. Not only this but u were brought up a Muslim and willingly walked away.


Now as the Quran is an address to the Messenger salla Allah A`lyhee wa sallam. Allah Explains things in some positions and instructs him on others which of course must be adopted and followed by us too.


In a number of Ayahs Allah Is telling the Messenger not to kill himself over people to become Muslims. Not to grief for those who reject the call. He is telling him just to convey the message and it is up to the receipient to accept or reject. In the Ayahs u quoted Allah Is making an anology to the Messenger salla Allah A`lyhee wa sallam about the peope who reject.


martini I give u an example. An employee who joins a company, before signing the contract he/she reads the internal by law. Yet when working does not apply it, willingly he/she does not attend, does not complete work. then the result is salary deduction, then termination. Will the employer be sorry? Have the employer to beg the employee to follow. He may only admonish him/her 1 2 3 times, but then action has to be taken.


Like wise Allah Is explaining to the Messenger because he used to grief a lot specially when it came to his loved close people.


So martini we are not jumping up the wall because u made a choice and no one can help u unless u want to help yourself.


As for the Ayah u r talking about regarding christians and jews. I guess u r talking about Quran 2:62 I didnt see the other thread u made yet. But if u browse the board this Ayah in particular was dealt with Alhamdulelah.


till I dig the thread u may browse.


welcome to the board stay with us may be u can learn something that


<b>THERE IS NO DEITY WORTHY TO WORSHIP BUT ALLAH
</b>


ASH HADU ANA LA ILAHA ILA ALLAH WA ANA MOHAMADAN RASULL ALLAH

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


martini actually as Anya gave u the example of the test. This whole life is a test a chance for u to believe or not. It is up to u and u either succeed or not.


If not Allah Shall remain One and He does not need no one we need Him. Believing is in our favor not him

[Anyabwile]

but you feel it necessary to defend the Quran, even at the cost of intellectual dishonesty. Why? Why not just admit that it does seem to be a contradiction but faith leads you to believe that somehow its not. Isn't this more honest than making up an excuse?

I think i did admit there does seem to a contradiction at first glance but then i explained it fully. Which is satisfactory, if i had to make up an excuse then i would be lying to myself this isn't how i work. But you asked a question and was given an explination, to then call it making up an excuse makes you asking for an explination pointless anyway. No matter what response to your answer, it would be making up an excuse. Like i said...you want to go around in circles.


The explination is fine to me. I used to be Atheist then became agnostic and then found Islam. So for me, trying to explain Atheism was a direct contradiction with the evidence of creation. And this beleif in Atheism was leading me to belive that there is not a contradiction in the views of Athiests, when there is. If i found something in the Qur'an that convinced me after learning the Arabic that it wasn't the word of God, then i wouldn't be Muslim. There's nothing i have to continue being Muslim for if i thought the Qur'an wasn't the word of God. I have no Muslim family or freinds so i wouldn't lose anything. there's nothing to hold me back.


But there's nothing in it that has shown me this, and i've got three translations of the Qur'an here at home. And am now learning Arabic to read the original. <b>Nothing</b> in it has made me think this isn't the word of God. The exact opposite to honest, this is why i'm getting more passionate about my beleif as the months pass. If something did make me think this is not the word of God then i wouldn't be Muslim. I've no need to lie to myself what's the point? I'm not a proud person. There's nothing holding me back, if you look at it in this kind of context, it would be easier not to be Muslim to be honest.


Regarding excuses with religious people, i feel exactly how you feel except the other way around, i think Atheists make up excuses to try and disprove creation when it is all around them. Took me a long time. I'd always been a firm Atheist, but actually started looking into things for my self. Into science and everything i saw led me to creation, without a doubt, i just hadn't thought too much about Atheism i suppose, i just didn't accept there was a God or creation and was firm in this.


But after i actually looked for myself i came to beleif in a creator and then after looking into major religions. Islam stood out as the clear truth. Easily. Blatantly even. I know a brother who was in a situation similar to the one you described in your post. Grew up Muslim, only taught the basics, and as he grew older got tired of religion and the idea of it as you have. External influences family etc have a bigger effect on us that we think. But the fact you're here asking questions is interesting, it was how i came to Islam when i was an Atheist.


Maybe though coming to an Islamic board will not help you as an Atheist as obviously we all belive in God. Perhaps an Agnostic board would be a better place to start. But then if you're an Atheist, you shouldn't really have any questions about God anyway, because you don't belive in the idea of God. Agnostic is different, but as an Athiest you're happy with life being pointless right? Because this is the view of an Atheist, the moment you stray from that view, that there is some kind of point to life, then you're Agnostic. I know these things trust me, i was a proffesional Atheist at one time.


If there was something i didn't understand in Qur'an i would seek the Arabic and then find an explination, as using the english translations when seeking to find contradictions and then not being willing to accept the true Arabic original meaning is pointless. This is why i'm learning Qur'anic Arabic right now, so Insha Allah i can read for myself and hopefully answer questions i get asked easier, as i don't like relying on translations no more.


But as i said, you ask for an explination, i give you one, and then you call it "making up an excuse" whats the point in asking for the explaination in the first place? I don't understand that. Anyway hope you find your answers wherever you get them from. Not sure if it'll be from an Islamic board though?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom brothers and sisters


Peace martini


“<b>Those who reject faith, and die rejecting
</b>, on them is God's curse, and the curse of angels, and of mankind;” (Quran 2:161) this Ayah explains the situation as two stages, if one rejects faith fine but may be he/she will return back. But if not, dies rejecting then that is when the problem lies.


Life is a chance for one to cease. Therefore, u r given a chance till death comes that is when the situation is irrevocable, like Pharon who said “We took the children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. <b>at length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: I believe that there is no god except him whom the children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to God in Islam).”
</b>But Allah Said:” (It was said to him:) <b>Ah now but a little while before, wast thou in rebellion and thou didst mischief (and violence
</b>)” (Quran 10:90-91).


On the issue of blind and deaf: Allah Say:” Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this message.” (Quran 18:6)


“So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: For God knows well all that they do.” (Quran 35:8)


and also commanded him:


“So if they dispute with thee, say: i have submitted my whole self to God and so have those who follow me. and say to the people of the book and to those who are unlearned: do ye (also) submit yourselves? if they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the message; and in God's sight are (all) his servants.” (Quran 3:20)


The methodology is very clear. So when Allah Is Commanding the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam as such. He Is also explaining further that those who reject about whom he must not grief are like the blind and deaf.


U may tell your friend he/she is stubborn just don’t loose your breath advising him/her. Or he / she is like hypnotized there is no use talking to him/her. The same thing here they are like blind not seeing Allah’s clear, manifest and numerous signs. They are deaf not hearing His call. Why? They don’t want to be restricted with rules, but they happily adopt and follow their own rules.


Like people deregulating Allah’s rules then regulate what they deregulate according to their likes. People turn into homosexuals then those homos call for marriage rights, get married in churches. Isnt this the case? Allah made it lawful for men and women to marry, they said no we want to have sex with the same gender we like it this way, then wanted to put it into a legitimate form. La hawla wala qowata ila billah. Just to rebel.


<b>They don’t want to comply with, abide by, adhere to they want to be free so they fall into the lowest level of enslavement to themselves where they are most humiliated. </b>


If they don’t see the skies how they are erected, the ant how it has the same organs as themselves, the stars how they don’t fall out of their orbit, the flies how they procreate just like the human beings and other species. If they can not see, hear, comprehend all this, then they have a major problem. They are blind and deaf. Awfully sorry for such a long post usually I don’t.

[Deen]

Assalaam Alaikum,


With all due respect, when copying and pasting ayats from the Quran, we should not take them literally nor should the non-muslims speak as if they are scholars as if to teach the muslims about Islam...


<b>It is imperative to understand all these verses jurisprudentially, meaning that the Shari'ah reality for which they have been decreed must be perceived.</b>


I hope the following peice will resolve the issue!


Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Raheem


Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal (Guidance and Misguidance)


In the Arabic language “Al-Huda” (guidance) means “Al-Rashad” (to be rightly guided). In Shari'ah terminology, “Al-Hidayah” is to be guided to Islam and to have Iman in it. “ Al-Dhalal” according to Shari'ah is to deviate from Islam; for instance, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “Truly Allah does not gather my Ummah over a Dhalalah (misguidance).” Allah (swt) has made Heaven for the guided and Hell for the strayed; meaning that Allah (swt) rewards the guided and punishes the misguided. Hence, making the reward and the punishment dependent on “ Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal” indicates that guidance and misguidance are part of man's actions and not from Allah (swt) ; for if they were from Allah (swt), He would not reward for the guidance and punish for the Misguidance, for this would lead to attributing injustice to Allah (swt) and Allah (swt) is far too exalted above this. Allah (swt) says: [41-46] "Nor is your Lord ever unjust to His servants." T.M.Q. Allah (swt) also says: [50-29] "And I do not the least injustice to My servants.." T.M.Q .


However, there are several Ayat that indicate the attribution of Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal to Allah (swt). Hence, one can deduce from these Ayat that Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal are not from the servant, but rather from Allah (swt). Other Ayat indicate the attribution of Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal and Idhlal (misguiding others) to the servant, and one can deduce from these that “Al-Hidayah” And Al-Dhalal is from the servant.


It is imperative to understand all these verses jurisprudentially, meaning that the Shari'ah reality for which they have been decreed must be perceived. Then, it becomes clear that the attribution of Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal to Allah (swt) has a different indication to the attribution of Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal to the servant; also, it becomes clear that each one of them is directed at a side that is different to the side to which the other is directed. Hence, the Shari'ah meaning becomes conspicuously clear.


Indeed, the Ayat that attribute “Al-Dhalal Wal-Hidayah” to Allah (swt) are clear in the fact that it is He (swt) who guides and that it is He (swt) who misguides.


Allah (swt) says: [13-27] "Say truly Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and He guides to Himself those who turn to Him in penitence." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [35-8] "Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [14-4] “Hence Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [16-93] “But He leaves straying whom He wills and guides whom He pleases." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [6-125] "Those whom Allah wills to guide He opens their hearts to Islam; those whom He wills to leave straying, He makes their hearts close and constricted as if they had to climb up to the sky." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [6-39] "Whom Allah wills He leaves to wander and whom He wills He places on the way that is straight." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [10-35] "Say it is Allah Who gives guidance towards the Truth." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [7-43] "And they shall say praise be to Allah Who has guided us to this never could we have found guidance had it not been for the guidance of Allah." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says:[18-17] "He Whom Allah guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray for him you will find no protector to lead him to the right way." T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [28-56] "It is true you will not be able to guide every one whom you love but Allah guides those whom He wishes." T.M.Q.


The literal meaning of these Ayat contains a clear indication that the One who makes “ Al-Hidayah Wal-Idhlal” is Allah (swt) and not the servant. This means that the servant does not get guided by himself but if Allah (swt) guides him then he will be guided and if he misguides him then he will stray. However, there are conjunctions which divert this literal meaning to other than the meaning of having the Guidance and Misguidance initiated by Allah (swt). These meanings attribute the creation of “Al-Hidayah Wal-Dhalal” i.e. Guidance and Misguidance to Allah (swt), and attributed the initiation of “Al-Hidayah Wal-Dhalal” i.e. Guidance and Misguidance, as well as “ Idhlal” i.e. misguiding others, to the servant. The conjunctions are both Shari'ah based and rationally based.


As for the Shari'ah “Qaraa'in” i.e. conjunctions, these are reflected in the several verses attributing “Al-Hidayah Wal-Dhalal Wal-Idhlal” i.e. Guidance, being misguided and misguiding others, to the servant.


Allah (swt) says: [17-15] “Who receives guidance receives it for his own benefit; who goes astray does so to his own loss.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [ 5 -105] “No hurt can come to you from those who stray if you follow guidance.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [39-41] “He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [2-157] “And they are the ones that received guidance.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [41-29] “And the unbelievers will say: Our God! Show us those among Jinns and men who misled us.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [34-50] “Say if I am astray I only stray to the loss of my own soul.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [6-144] “But who does more wrong than the one who invents a lie against Allah to lead astray people without knowledge.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [10-88] “Our Lord, to mislead others from Your path.” T.M.Q .


Allah (swt) says: [26-99] “And our seducers were only the criminals.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [20-85] “The Samiri had led them astray….” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [7-38] “Our Lord! It is these who misled us.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [3-69] “It is the wish of a section from among the people of the Book to lead you astray, but they only mislead themselves.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [71-27] “For if you do leave them they will but mislead your servants.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [4-60] “But Satan's wish is to mislead them.” T.M.Q .


Hence, the literal meaning of these Ayat contains a clear indication that it is man who initiates "Al-Huda Wa-d-Dhalal" i.e. "Guidance and Misguidance", that he misguides himself and misguides others and that Satan also misguides. The attribution of “Al-Hidayah Wa-d-Dhalal" to man and Misguidance to Satan. The Ayat indicate that man can be guided by himself and misguided by himself. This acts as a Qarinah (conjunction) to indicate that the attribution of “Al-Hidayah Wa-l-Idhalal" to Allah (swt) is not a direct attribution, but rather an attribution of Creation; for if we were to place all the verses together and perceive them from a Shari'ah angle, it becomes clear that each set of Ayat is dedicated to a different side; for the Ayah says: [10-35] "Say it is Allah Who gives guidance towards the Truth." T.M.Q. , and the other Ayah says: [17-15] “Who receives guidance receives it for his own benefit; The first one indicates that it is Allah (swt) Who has guided whereas the second one indicates that it is man who was guided. The guidance of Allah (swt) in the first Ayah is the Creation of the Guidance within the soul of man, i.e. the generating of the aptitude to be guided; the second Ayah indicates that man is the one who initiates what Allah (swt) has created in terms of aptitude towards being guided, thus he was guided. This is why Allah (swt) says in another Ayah: [90-10] “ And We have shown him the two highways. ” T.M.Q. i.e. the path of Al-Khayr and the path of Al-Sharr; meaning that We have placed in him the aptitude of “Al-Hidayah” (Guidance) and We have let him initiate the act of being guided himself. Hence, the Ayat that attribute “Al-Hidayah Wa-l-Idhlal" to man serve as a Shari'ah conjunction indicating that Allah (swt) has decided to dedicate the initiation of “Al-Hidayah” to man.


As for the rational Qarinah (conjunction), this is reflected in the fact that Allah (swt) accounts people; thus He (swt) rewards the Guided and punishes the Misguided. He (swt) made the accounting according to the consequences of man's actions.


Allah (swt) says: [41-46] “Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil, it is against his own soul.Nor is your Lord ever unjust to His servants.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [99-7] “Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good see it” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [20-112] “But he who works deeds of righteousness and has faith will have no fear of harm nor of any curtailment.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [4-123] “Whoever works evil will be requited accordingly.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [9-68 ] “Allah has promised the hypocrites men and women and the rejecters of faith the fire of hell therein they shall dwell.” T.M.Q .


Therefore, if the meaning of attributing the “Al-Hidayah Wa-l-Idhlal" to Allah (swt) was interpreted as His (swt) initiation of it, His punishment of the Kafir and the hypocrite and the rebel would be injustice, and Allah (swt) is far too exalted abovex this. Hence, it is imperative to devote that meaning to other than the initiation, which is the creation of the “Al-Hidayah” (guidance) from nothing and the enabling of man to be reach it; thus it is man who initiates “Al-Hidayah Wa-l-Idhlal" and that is why is accounted for it.


This is as far as the Ayat which contain the attribution of “Al-Hidayah Wa-l-Idhlal" to Allah (swt). As for the Ayat in which the “Al-Hidayah Wa-l-Idhlal" is linked to the will, as is the case in Allah 's (swt) saying: [16-93] “ He guides whoever He wills and He misguides whoever He wills. ” T.M.Q ., the meaning of the Will (Al-Mashee'ah) in this context is the volition (Al-Iradah). The meaning of such Ayat is that no man is guided despite Allah (swt) and no man is misguided despite Allah (swt), but whoever gets guided, does so with the volition and the will of Allah (swt) and whoever gets misguided does so with His will and volition.


There are a host of Ayat from which one can deduce that some people will never get guided, such as Allah (swt) saying: [2-6] “As to those who reject faith, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) also says: [83-14] “But on their hearts is the stain.” T.M.Q.


Allah (swt) says: [11-36] “It was revealed to Noah none of your people will believe except those who have believed already.” T.M.Q.


These Ayat is information from Allah (swt) to His prophets about some specific people, that these people will not believe; this is part of Allah (swt)'s knowledge and it does not mean that there is a group who believe and another group who do not believe; rather every man is ordained with the ability to believe. The Messenger of Allah (saw) and the Da'awah carrier in his wake are ordered to call all people to Iman and it is forbidden for the Muslim to despair from the Iman of any person whosoever. As for those whom Allah (swt) knows that they will not believe, this is because the knowledge of Allah (swt) encompasses everything, and whatever Allah (swt) does not inform us about, we are forbidden from passing judgement on it ourselves. The prophets did not pass judgement on the non belief of anyone until Allah (swt) informed them about it.


As for Allah (swt)'s saying: [5-108] “For Allah guides not rebellious people.” T.M.Q.-


Also His saying: [2-258] “And Allah guides not the unjust people.” T.M.Q.


And His saying: [2-264] “ And Allah guides not the disbelieving people.” T.M.Q.


Also His saying:[16-37] “ If you are anxious for their guidance yet Allah guides not such as He leaves to stray. ” T.M.Q.


And His saying: [40-28] “ Truly Allah does not guide one who transgresses and lies. ” T.M.Q.


These Ayat mean that Allah (swt) does not enable them to achieve guidance for the enabling towards guidance is from Allah (swt) . The Fasiq , the rebel, the Kafir , the misguided and the excessive liar, are all characterised by attributes that contradict “Al-Hidayah” and Allah (swt) does not help towards achieving “Al-Hidayah” he whose attribute is as such, because the help towards achieving “Al-Hidayah” is in fact the providing for man the situations and circumstances in which “Al-Hidayah” occurs, and he who is characterised with such attributes does not have the situations of “Al-Hidayah” , but rather the situations of Dhalal .


Similar to this is Allah (swt) saying:[1-5] “ Show us the straight way. ” T.M.Q.


And His saying:[38-22] “ But guide us to the even path. ” T.M.Q. meaning help us achieve “Al-Hidayah” i.e. make the situations in which this “Hidayah” occurs, easy and available for us.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace martini I wonder where did u go? hope u did read the replies, waiting for u to interact more with us Insh a Allah