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Whisper · 06-07-2003, 12:52 AM

Two Questions, One is to the moderator and one is to Purgetory, although I want all Muslims to answer, the answer should be the same for you all.

Will you allow this to be no holds barred?

Do you all believe all the Qur'ans in the world are identical, and that it is perfectly preserved and free from any variation?

Before we begin the slaughter, the Qur'an is if I am not mistaken is a perfect book, unchanged, with no variation.

That claim is of the highest.

amai · 06-07-2003, 03:59 AM

i'm definitely not a Muslim, but i'm just curious. are you refering to the English translations or the Arabic ones?(if there are more than one)

Whisper · 06-07-2003, 04:29 AM

Arabic, however if permission is given, I will post the Arabic language variations and a close to perfect English translation.

Arabic is where I intend to hit many a nail on the head because it is their comfort zone.

The bottom line is that I will prove to them that the Qur'an isn't perfect.

That's all I have to do, it's very easy to do when you know you can back it up with hard evidence, that being from the different Qur'ans.

So, for all intensive purposes, it is really a custom made win.

Whisper · 06-07-2003, 05:03 AM

Here's a fact,

it shouldn't offend you, the truth should never hurt you in the long run.

Muslims believe that the Quran was written directly by Allah, given to the angel Gabriel, and handed down to Muhammad. Thus, it is perfect in its original language, and in fact, cannot even be translated properly by any human - but must be read in Arabic (Suras 12:2; 13:37; 41:41,44).

Unfortunately, this makes the Quran unreadable by approximately 800 million Muslims.

WOW, What a stroke of genius!

Whisper · 06-07-2003, 05:10 AM

Here's a few soft ones,

It is claimed that there are no variant readings or versions of the Quran.

And, according to Sura 10:37-38, no one could write anything like the Quran.

These are rather bold claims...especially to one who has seen the evidence for the Bible's trustworthiness and claim to truth. But these claims are easily inspected. We have the scholarship available to us today to see if these things are so. The following is a list of FACTS concerning the Muslim claim of inspiration for the Quran.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).

AbuNoran · 06-07-2003, 07:04 AM

I just wonder what do I have to to say to make you stop making a fool out of yourselves????[/color:ecb162e627]

The thing is that you know how well I will prove you wrong and make you put your foot in your mouths yet you keep doing it to yourselves, hmmmmmm, what description would possibly fit you????

Could some one suggest a description for these 2, please, please, please, help me out here, I am ROFLOL.[/color:ecb162e627] [Image: laugh.gif]

The other thing is, I hate to waste my time with people below average intellignce like that, but since you wanna come here and challange me, then you are on.

Any intelligent person would have thought twice before posting something like this.

Wait for my reply to this ridiculous post as the rest of your posts are, I now realize that's the only thing you are good at! [Image: laugh.gif]

P.S. You can keep trying to twist words around as much as you want, [u:ecb162e627]my job will be[/u:ecb162e627]: [b:ecb162e627]make you put your foot in your mouth.[/b:ecb162e627]

[u:ecb162e627][b:ecb162e627]To my brothers and sisters:[/size:ecb162e627][/color:ecb162e627][/b:ecb162e627][/u:ecb162e627]

[b:ecb162e627]PLEASE do NOT reply before I do (except for suggesting the descriptions [Image: laugh.gif]

), Jazakum ALLAH khiran, I will reply after a couple of hours of sleep.[/color:ecb162e627][/size:ecb162e627][/b:ecb162e627]

As a matter of fact, here's a little quiz for my brothers and sisters:

Who can tell how ALLAH (SWT) described these types of people in the Quran? And what is/are the verse(s)?

Work on that until I post my reply, jazakum ALLAH khiran.[/color:ecb162e627]

Whisper · 06-07-2003, 07:41 AM

Get real my man, if you were serious about taking up the challange, you'd explain and counter my posts instead of ducking and diving.

I can post a smiley face also, look [Image: biggrin.gif]

Unfortunately, posting smiley faces won't win you or I an arguement based on fact.

Why don't you make an effort?, that post above offered an opinion, not fact, if you refuse to play by the rules,

Well,

Next........................

Whisper · 06-07-2003, 07:44 AM

Again .....................

Here's a few soft ones,

It is claimed that there are no variant readings or versions of the Quran.

And, according to Sura 10:37-38, no one could write anything like the Quran.

These are rather bold claims...especially to one who has seen the evidence for the Bible's trustworthiness and claim to truth. But these claims are easily inspected. We have the scholarship available to us today to see if these things are so. The following is a list of FACTS concerning the Muslim claim of inspiration for the Quran.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).

AbuNoran · 06-07-2003, 07:48 AM

Yeah I am still up, but my sleep comes before replying to such ridiculous posts [Image: laugh.gif]

and don't worry, I won't dream about my reply as you might think [Image: laugh.gif]

Any average Muslim (as u described them in another post) can reply to you, but I wanna do it to make you put your foot in your mouth once and for all and in public, hehehehe. [Image: laugh.gif]

later.

Whisper · 06-07-2003, 07:54 AM

WOW - Talk is cheap, unless, you are going to present evidence that hasn't ever been seen by the major scholars of this world and that is Godly, you like others I have dealt with will, simply be drowned out by facts.

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