Please excuse me for the delinquency of my reply. I hope that you are still checking the board.
First let me address your questions one at a time. Your original text appears in red:
Do you think that people in Afghanistan are responsible for the american failure to protect themselves inside America?
Absolutely not. No American does. The people of Afghanistan are simply innocent victims of a tyranical regime that the rest of the civilized world recognized had supported, funded, facilitated and offered protection to a group of Fanatically religious Zealots that, like yourself, believe America is truly evil. The United States had full UN approval, in the case of Afghanistan, to retaliate for the worst homeland attack in our history.
And here's an interesting note for you. Did you know that Russia, in accordance with the United Kindom, established the borders of Afghanistan in 1885, completely independent of the US? Or that until 1970, Afghanistan received aid from both the United States and Russia? She flourished and grew phenomenally. Schools, Librarys, ROADS, FARMS... all becase of the empathetic hearts of evil Americans and Russians.
Did you know that the government at that time fully supported and was supported by Russia, the United States, AND the UN? That the modernization of Afghanistan didn't start to fall apart until the withdrawal or Russian troops in 1989 as the religious zealots tore themselves apart from the inside? Today there are over 126 warlords in Afghanistan.
Did you know? Did you know? Did you know? There are so many facts and history I could poor into this answer, it would take all night. How 'bout this? Unless you live in a country governed by extremist religion or tyranical leader, and if you have any semblance of "freedom of speach" or "freedom of the press", try reading this history site:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0856490.html
Do you think that those people who are responsible for sept.11 attack come to your land,plan for this work ,move through air ports without any help from some americans?if this is ok,it is a disaster,and if it is not ok it is a bigger disaster.
They may have had help... No, you're probably right. I'm relatively certain they had help. The US located many terrorist sleeper cells and froze many bank accounts after the attacks. It is very unfortunate that all of America has fewer freedoms and a few innocent lives have been destroyed; but you can not blame my government for that. Sometimes, the only right decision can be a wrong decision at any other time. Does that statement ring true to you?
Do you think that people in Iraq are responsible for your false information about iraq`s weapons?
Nope. Can't blame Iraqi citizens. But the war in Iraq is about much more than weapons of mass destruction. And it is difficult for me to argue justification OR fault in our decision of aggression against Iraq. But I think that Bush made the right decision with the intelligence that he had:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/...t_2002.htm
And even though the UN ultimately opposed our decision to go to war, try also to remember that Bush allowed Saddam to push back on the "firm" deadline for UN Weapons Inspectors (set by the UN) three times before finally taking action. All that Saddam had to do to prevent this was to allow a MULTI-NATIONAL group to inspect his weapons facilities.
Many innocent lives have been lost. Many people have died needlessly, and my heart aches for them, but when it is all said and done, regardless of what most of the world thinks of our decision, they also tend to believe that Iraq will be a much better place. Here is an interesting article that smells faintly of propaganda, but still states many verifiable facts that tend to lead me to this belief:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=276353
and by the way how you explain why it is fair to let some nations having weapons to kill thousands of peoples in Iraq and Palestine and to prevent the others from carrying stone to protect themselves?
Every day I read reports on CNN of Iraqi "martyrs" who cloak themselves in explosives and believe their path to heaven is through the destruction of as many unarmed, non-combatant civilians as possible. Iraqis are killing other Iraqis faster than any US-led invasion. Now you tell me... do you really find it a difficult decision to believe that these people should NOT have WMD? And in the US, it takes no less that 4 people to fire any of our nuclear arsenal. Do you think that Saddam would have shared that power? What about Kim-Jong Il over in N. Korea who made it a law that school children be taught that he has magical powers and can fly.
The decision is based on the fact that no ONE person should have that kind of power. And just in case you have trouble with that, here is a link describing all of the measures the US has done in the past years to reduce these weapons:
http://www.psr.org/home.cfm?id=non_proliferation8
Other than that, I completely agree that a nation has the right to protect itself. I think we can all agree with that. And if you'll take the time to find and read the treaty that Saddam signed in 1992, you'll find that he was not denied the right to manufacture defensive weapons only offensive ones.
If its true that America want to save Iraq from Saddam ,was it hard for those who are able to kill 100000 in iraq to plan for this target with the aid of some iraqes,specially that the majority of the people want that as Mr prisedent Bush think?
I'd like to point you to my statement above. And if you HONESTLY believe that America has not gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties (unlike these insurgents), then you should consider how many times our warplanes have been called off because their targets were hiding in Mosque's, or Schools, or Hospitals. Insurgents fight without honor. They are cowards. When America first surrounded Saddam's hometown, insurgents FORCED civilians to run at our troops so that they would be shot and evoke global sympathy, because OUR media is allowed to report the truth, even if it is ugly and disgraceful (i.e. Abu-Grabe). These civilians were shot if they didn't run, or they tried to run back. And if they had family in the city, their families were killed.
I realize that sounds like a huge load of propaganda, and I apologize for not having available facts to substantiate it; but I KNOW it happened. I SAW it.
Can you explain how Saddam was an imminence threat to the security of America?
Perhaps I could. But I won't. I'm growing weary of typing, and I've probably already offended many of the people on this board who have shown me so much understanding, and compassion, and the beauty of the religion you claimed to adhere to.
Excuse me I will consider your words aboutattacking the Iraq because it is the place was Saddam was hiding is just a joke and forgive me for that
You are forgiven.
Finally I have a ward about the instalment of a democratic freedom system, the first andmost important point in this matter is to respect the others and to let them take their decision and if you want to help try to spread your culture, only let them Know and they will change if they agree
Ummmm... the definition of democracy is the respect of others, but in a land where the cruelest murderer is king... how do people affect change, even if they do know?
Do a little research, man. Take a look at all the nations in the world. Find the ones with the largest annual incomes, the ones with the highest life-expectancy, best medical coverage, highest level of technology. They're all based on the "Republic" model of government, which is the foundation of democracy.
Just in case you doubt me. Germany has the highest annual income at 55,000USD. The US is number 2. France is number 21. Out of 231 countries, where do you think Iraq falls? Number 186 at 1,600USD. Afghanistan is ranked 219. Egypt is 139. Turkey is 105.
By stark comparison, the United Arab Emirates, which has chosen NOT to rule their lands with tyranny and fanaticism, instigated a Republic, and views "Western Standards" as more of a civilized concept than a hell-bound den of iniquity and self-indulgence, and they are currently ranked at 31.
For me I am sure that America is the nation of evil,starting from genocide of the red indians,slavery of the africans,Vietnam war,supporting the occupation of Palestine,Iraq war,Guantinamo prison,Abogrieb prison ,even inside America the segregation between white and black Americans
We were wrong in our treatment of native-Americans, as was Spain. But today, they have the same freedom and rights as any American. I could never justify that type of slaughter, all I can say is that our fore-fathers HONESTLY believed that they had a mandate from God to take this land... sounds kind of familiar.
Slavery, first of all, and quite sadly, was not restricted to African-Americans. Chinese, Mexican, Puerto-Ricans and many other nationalities were sold into slavery. But just as America endured slavery, so has most any society at some point in it's history. The middle-east is no exception. And I would go so far as to say its treatment of women today is nothing short of slavery. A woman is not (anymore) a subjugate of man, but a nurturing partner. Notice my use of the word "anymore"? At one time in history, it may have been so, but unlike many who cling to fanatacisim, I belive religion should evolve just as our society does. Who is to say that Allah can not change his mind?
Support of the occupation of Palestine is an entirely different argument. The entire Israeli-Palestine confrontation is riddled with contradictions and propaganda and half-truths. The history is very volatile and goes back many, many years before the birth of Christ (forgive me for that time reference, I not sure how Islam's works). I have studied it quite extensively, and I have found it difficult, at times, to find redemption or justification in either of them. But I have come to comclusions finally, and I will share them with you, if you like, but not tonight. Let it be enough for me to say that Palestine deserves and has all rights to its own sovreignty, but they are as much to blame for the war as Israel, the US, or the rest of the world. And the world is to blame for failing BOTH sides.
The Vietnam war is, even today, an event of much debate. I have not studied it enough to make a decision, but I will say that two of my closest friends are Vietnamese. Their parents both fought in the war as enemies of the US. Today they live here. They like me, and I love them.
Guantanimo... there are examples of innocent people being held without reason in every society, every government, at any point in history. It is a horrible tragedy, but it has and will continue to happen, wrongly though it may be. Ultimately, most of the Guantanimo prisoners are KNOWN terrorist; and I do not believe they are being mistreated. In the US, it's easy to find video footage of the life they lead. While it is cramped and confined, they are not beaten, starved, or tortured. Maybe they do not always receive the rightful amount of humanity, I don't know, I've never been there; but on the whole, I think they are treated fairly.
Abu-Graib... a horrible, horrible example of the unacceptable behavior of a FEW American soldiers... condemned by the world AND the United States as evidenced by the fact that you, wherever you live could find a television and watch the trials and carriage of justice by a society based on the "Rule of LAW" and not religion.
And consider this, only one prisoner died in Abu-Graib. How many people have insurgents so viciously beheaded?
Segragation inside America is another topic that could take all night to cover. It's very convoluted and distorted by self-serving power mongers on both sides of the argument. Here is how that breaks down: After the abolition of slavery, our government failed the African Americans. We didn't do enough. But that did not result in the deep division that you seem to believe exists. What it led to was, basically, two types of African-American: the type that still thinks the world owes them everything, and the type that have broken out of the backwards stereotypes placed on them by my racist fore-fathers and earned the respect that any person can earn in America. As a way of example, I used to visit areas of Southern Florida heavilly populated by black people from Haiti. They were always kind and friendly, and I was always the same. I have been asked by several of these Haitians, "What is wrong with black people in America? Why are they so angry?".
You see, these people did not come from the history of hatred and racisim that so many African-Americans have and, as such, did not conduct themselves as if America was the land that oppressed them but rather the land that gave them opportunity. And by the way they carry themselves, relate to the white majority in America, they are given (most of the time) the respect and opportunity that they deserve.
Here's another example. Mexicans, in early US history were often considered to be lower on the human scale that Africans; but today, because there were fewer that grew up through our racist stages and more that have come into the country in search of a better life, they now surpass the average household income and growth rate of any minority here.
Anyway, I've said all I have time to say tonight. Many of you may feel I've said too much. I apologize if this is the case. I intend no disrespect. I guess I have finally defined, if only to myself, what led me to this board. As I've said before, I've read the Qu'ran, and I understand the teachings within it. I disagree with many of them, but I'm not claiming that I am infallable. Whenever I am exposed to your religion, I am left feeling that it is more about control and power and fanatacism than it is about the teachings of your holy book.
In the United States, Islam is growing rapidly among African-Americans because they are taught that Muhammed was, himself, African. Is that enough reason to convert to any religion, because the prophet was the same race as you?
In the United States, we no longer understand the concept of killing someone because of their religion. The idea of a "Holy War", thank Allah, has become alien to us.
Christianity is by no means free of innocent blood, thus my very lose association with the dogma in any of its forms. I believe that no one book, no one person can define God for me. I must do that for myself. The books that I read, they are simply guides and indicators. Allah himself will illustrate the truth, even if it is only my truth.
I have many reasons for proclaiming Jesus of Nazareth as the messiah, even in the face of all the other concepts that I have absorbed, but I could never and should never come into an Islamic chat group and try to convince you all that you are wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. But that is what I believe lends credibility to my beliefs, the fact that I am always willing to be proven wrong.
Rock, you have posed many questions to me tonight, and I have tried to answer them as plainly, and as honestly, and as factually as I can. I PERSONALLY believe that I have rebuffed your declaration of: "I am sure that America is the nation of evil"
If I have not, please tell me in what way I have failed and why. If I can not provide further proof of my beliefs then, even if I DO NOT change them, I will admit that you are right.
I wish the best for you from the Infinite Father.
Child Of Nowhere
![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.islamsms.com/bb/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
