Why Convert?

[ronniv93]

Woo big horrible Anya, simply because i ask difficult questions you do not like.

Okay, let’s get this straight right off the bat. Now, get ready . . . .


I do not care if you ask what <b>YOU</b> consider to be difficult questions. Christianity has been getting attacked since it began by probably every other belief system there is. I personally have been attacked for my faith and I’ve gotten a lot better challenges than what you’ve presented. Please don’t assume that your questions are THAT good, because they are pretty typical and rather old, to be honest.

Errrrr wrong. How can you INTERPRET FACTS differently?

<b>Example: </b> Someone can make the claim that Islam is a religion of violence as proven by the HISTORICAL FACTS that Muslims have been at war with other nations and peoples since it began. The prophet of Islam himself was engaged in more than 60 battles during his 23-year prophetic career alone. If one looks throughout history, you can see Muslims at war with others. They can show you present-day FACTS about how Muslims are engaged in wars and heinous acts all over the world. They can present the passages from the Quran and Hadith that would seem to support the idea that Islam is violent. A non-Muslim could easily conclude that Islam is a violent religion.


Most Muslims would not agree even though the historical FACTS would seem to show otherwise.


Now, <b>LET ME MAKE THIS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR</b>….. I am NOT coming here to make that claim. But since you seemed to not understand what I was saying, I presented this example.

If you came to me with HISTORICAL FACTS showing me the Quran was corrupted over time, and had many different versions written which Muslims of today didn't know about.

I have pointed you to an excellent source already in my earlier post; understand I’m not claiming corruption per se, just differences. And no, I am NOT talking about the simple dots and other markings that were added over time to aid people in the proper pronunciation of words. If we want to go into this, perhaps we should start a separate thread on the issue.

Reading Quran in English the translation is lost anyway and all English Qurans acknowledge this, thus they suggest reading the Arabic version.

Great! That’s why I wasn’t talking about the English versions either. Can’t get me quite that easily. I am talking about the ARABIC Quran manuscripts.

I'm sorry again...and i apoligise here too...for assuming you was bought up in a western Christian envioronment,

I appreciate your apology. Now, let me say this. I didn’t mean to suggest that I didn’t grow up in the “West”. What I was against was the idea that my faith was simply handed down to me by my parents and I simply never questioned it. (My mother, for example, wasn’t a Christian while I was growing up; and my father didn’t push his faith on me). Growing up in the “West” does not guarantee that a person will be a Christian. Contrary to popular belief, a large number of Americans are hell-bound.

Thus i went to Islam after proving to myself God exists.

You proved this to yourself? I’d be interested in knowing how.

This here is a shame, you know directly that there are many denominations but you still for the second time refuse to anser the question because it leaves you on shaky ground.

* SMILE *


Leaves me on shaky ground? Really? That’s kinda cute, actually.


Listen, I did not deny that there are many denominations. But you asked me “who is right”? Well, who is right out of which one’s? If you had presented to me 3 or 4 that you had questions about, I could have easily answered your question.


For the most part, though, the denominations are NOT all that different from one another. The central tenet of the Christian faith is belief in the Creator God, the recognition that we are all sinners apart from Him, and belief/confession that Jesus Christ came as God manifest in the flesh, was crucified, dead, buried and resurrected, suffering the penalty for our sins.


Most denominations differ mainly in worship styles, beliefs about how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are used, or some other issue that does not affect a person’s salvation. Now, some groups may have some particular teachings that are heretical – that is it breaks from good, sound doctrine. Some of these can be minor; some severe.

Why refuse to answer something you CLEARLY know leaves your religion looking shaky. Isn't that a kind of Denial.

No. I’m just not dumb enough to try to offer a response to a question that is not clearly defined.

[ronniv93]

Now…. To your “LIST” that’s supposed to leave me on such shaky ground.


<b>Amish</b>: Don’t know enough about them. The only thing I know is that they usually live in seclusion from the rest of the world so that they can live by specific laws they pull from the Bible. I don’t think that they deny Jesus Christ, that He is the Christ, or that He paid the penalty for our sins. So long as they don’t do this, then I would label them as <b>right</b> with respect to ideas on salvation. I don’t agree with living in seclusion, though.


<b>Anabaptism</b>: I think this is more of a philosophy of thought/belief than an actual denomination. I may be wrong on that. I’ve just never looked in the phone book and found a listing for an “Anabaptist” church. I don’t know enough to comment.


<b>Assemblies of God</b>: From what I’ve seen, they’re <b>right</b>, too.


<b>Baptists</b>: They’re <b>right</b>, too.


<b>Calvinism</b>: In modern-day times, this is also a matter of a difference in philosophy of thought or belief. For instance, a Presbyterian may be Calvinist in thought. Or a Baptist could be a Calvinist. I have just been studying about Calvinism lately, so I know that in terms of salvation, they’re <b>right</b>, too.


<b>Christadelphians</b>: Don’t know. Don’t plan to look into it.


<b>Christian Identity</b>: WHO??? LOOL. Sorry. Never heard of them.


<b>Church Universal and Triumphant</b>: Okay. Is this just a church name and not a denomination??? LOOOL. Again, never heard of it.


<b>Church of Christ</b>: Well, there are 2 types of “Church of Christ”. One, I find very heretical in their teachings. I won’t go so far as to say that they are not true Christians, but they are dangerously on the edge. The other group is fine, so they’re <b>right</b>, too. This 2nd group of “Church of Christ” mainly believes that there should be no music in the worship service. BIG DEAL! : - )


<b>Church of England</b>: I don’t live in England, so I have no familiarity with them.


<b>Congregationalism</b>: No knowledge.


<b>Coptic Christianity</b>: Have only studied about them a little bit. I think these are just Egyptian Christians. Haven’t heard of any truly heretical doctrines.


<b>Eastern Orthodox</b>: Great folks! The main thing with them is that they believe that they are the so-called “original” church and that you have to be a part of their denomination to truly be called “The Church”. Much like the Catholics believe. In terms of salvific truth, they’re <b>right</b>, too. I find no Biblical support to say that you HAVE to be part of one group or another to be saved.


<b>Episcopal Church</b>: They’re <b>right</b>, too.


<b>Ethiopian Christianity</b>: Okay. Now, we’re segmenting by geographic location on the earth??? No comment.


<b>IURD</b>: :-S Huh??


<b>Jehovah's Witnesses</b>: Now, here’s the first group that I would staunchly say is <b>wrong</b>. They deny that Jesus was God incarnate, as CLEARLY stated in the book of John. And in fact, their people have CHANGED their English translation of the Bible to fit their own doctrines. The translators did not even know Hebrew and Greek, and thus cannot possibly produce a faithful translation. They teach ridiculous things such as only 144,000 people will go to heaven. They also erroneously think that they are saved by their works, which is totally against Scripture. So, let me say again that I believe they are <b>WRONG</b>.


<b>Lutheran Church</b>: <b>Right</b>. Mainly differences in styles of worship.


<b>Maronites</b>: Who knows? Never heard of them.


<b>Mennonites</b>: No idea what they believe.


<b>Methodism</b>: They’re <b>right</b>, too.


<b>Old Catholic Movement</b>: So, there is an “Old Catholic” and a “New Catholic”??? Hmm…. Well, whatever. From what I know of Catholic beliefs with respect to salvation, they’re <b>right</b>, as well.


<b>Pentecostal Church</b>: Right.


Look, this could go on forever. And in the end, lead us to nowhere but a brick wall.


So, what exactly is the point of me going through every single name on this list? Is that helping you at all? Because it sure isn’t helping me and it’s certainly not a good use of my time.

So now where do i go as someone who wishes to follow the word of God. And i'm sure we all agree Jesus and the other prophets did bring the word of God. But where do i go? I choose from between 95 or so different sects, movements and groups who each have their own way of thinking.

That’s why you go to the BIBLE. PERIOD. If you knew anything about the so-called “apocryphal” books (so-called “lost books of the Bible), you would KNOW why most of them were not considered inspired by the Holy Spirit. One book that Muslims claim was “left out of the Bible” actually says that Jesus taught this: “If a man eats a lion, then the lion becomes man.” Now, does that make any sense at all. Do you really think that Jesus would say something so ridiculous??


Other books are merely historical. You can read them or not read them; they have no bearing whatsoever on belief or doctrine.


If you HAD truly studied, as you claim you have, then you would realize some of these things already.

[ronniv93]

or....do you follow the book of God that has cleaned up this mess man has made in his arrogance. Which acknowledges the past prophets and is even predicted in some of the original oldest books of Christianity?

What does this mean? Predicted in the “original oldest books of Christianity”??? There is nothing OLDER than the Gospel accounts and they say nothing of another Book coming along. In fact, the Gospels aren’t about a BOOK, but the <b>MESSAGE</b> ABOUT Jesus Christ.


As for the Quran acknowledging past prophets, well….. The Bahai religion “acknowledges” Muhammad. Is that enough to make you convert to their religion?

Serious tho, what sex you are is irrelevant  AM i supposed to try and go easy on you because of this??

<b>NOT</b> the point. The only reason I brought it up was to show you that you know NOTHING about me, yet started making statements about me that were untrue and making judgments about what kind of person I must be. Until and unless you know, you ought to be cautious about what you say. Because if you make a solid statement about me that is untrue, then…. You’re lying.

I know my questions come across hard, which is why you thank Muslimah and Umm for not challenging you so directly i imagine.

Let me say this one last time for you. Your “little” challenges are nothing to me. They are actually the simplest questions to answer.

i already see you as a cousin and love you. As Allah would wish me to do.

How can you say that Allah would wish you to do this? Doesn’t the Quran say that Allah does not love the transgressor? Aren’t I committing the most heinous sin, according to Islam, by being a Christian? If Allah does not love me (according to your book), how can you say that he would wish for YOU to love m?

Also could you answer the Jesus/Swine and Jesus Praying questions i posed to you please.

I’ll have to go look this question up again and get back to you. I must have missed the direct question somehow.


I can say right now that I know of NOT ONE REFERENCE where Jesus said “don’t eat swine”. Nowhere in the Gospel is that presented. Jesus was concerned about matters of the SPIRIT and HEART; not legalistically following a set of rules and regulations.

I think sceintifically about a lot of things and it makes me sometimes seem cold hearted i guess.

Oh good! A science-minded person. So, can you explain most things that you follow as a Muslim from a scientific perspective???

[Muslimah]

Are you sure you want to say that to *me*??? The way I am, I’ll probably start driving you crazy with all my questions. 
But, seriously.  Thanks for the offer.

I would never make this offer unless because u came here willingly to ask, see that makes our duty to reply. With not force. That is why I gave u links before talking about something u dont know.


So read those links.


About confession. I came accross people who rejected the idea of having to confess for their sins to be forgiven. That is what raised questions.


Another I heard that he had problems with the being of Jesus (prayer and peace be upon him), is he god or son of god.


and u dont need to sound challenging, we will not force u to read if u dont want to..


I also have a suggestion, rather than going to anti Islamic sites, getting distorted info then coming here trying to verifying it. Since u r asking, it means u r interested and having a desire to learn and know the truth. Other wise, u wouldnt come asking.


Before asking about the authenticity of a book from its followers, read the book


Try reading the Quran.


Here are some good links Insh a Allah


www.qurancomplex.com


www.quran.nu


enjoy the journey

[ronniv93]

Hi radiyah,


Thanks to you as well for the welcoming.

As I know that christians go to the priest to confess of sins that they've done, the priest will take a sum of money, and then he will tell that confessing person finish your sins are forgivin. right or not?

Ahhh.... Then you are speaking of the Catholics and/or Orthodox Christians. I'm not sure about the money part of it; haven't heard that one.


Well, I am Protestant, so we don't have a concept of priests. Biblically speaking, all believers are part of a "royal priesthood".

Then Imagine what will happen to the universe if there is more than one GOD, will it be stable, will it still run smoothly and so systimatically, no it won't .

I agree. For that same reason, I don't accept belief in more than 1 God.

we submit only to Allah, we confess only to Him, we cry only to Him, we ask only His forgivness,

I can say "Amen" to that.

The One God Who Has the right to forgive, because he is our Creator, our souls are in His Hand, and not in the hand of a mere human being, who is a pope, to give himself the right that my sins are forgiven and that he has the key for me to enter the heavens.No 1 has that right except he one who created u and me ronni, and that is Allah.

I agree. That's one of the biggest problems (among many others) that I have with Catholic belief.

I know I repeated myself, but this is the begining that must be stressed on, God's onness.

I don't think you were repetitive at all. Very well put.

And ronni beleive me the Quran never changed, when u want to know if it changed u ask us arab muslims,

See, that's what I don't fully understand myself. I don't know if I can say that at some point there was one fully written and compiled Quran and then changes were made to it afterward. I just know that there were some differences in ancient manuscripts.


I have seen the scholars of Islam say that the Quran was actually "revealed" in all these different ways through Muhammad himself. Now, THAT part.... I don't understand.

and sorry for my long post

Actually, your post was a perfect length. I'm the one who gets long-winded. Maybe I'll get better and be more like you when I write.

[ronniv93]

Guys and girls, I'm trying to get around to responding to everyone's posts. Just give me a little time. Umm_Zachariah, I wanted to reply to your last post and also to Muslimah.

[Anyabwile]

Hello ronniv93, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I am in no way suggesting they were challenging to you at all. I'm a new Muslim and fairly new to Biblical issues etc as well, so i have no doubt you have enocuntered my questions many times, but even now still you haven't answered the root of my question. And that is Christianity is a mess and who do you follow. But let's start now...

Example: Someone can make the claim that Islam is a religion of violence as proven by the HISTORICAL FACTS that Muslims have been at war with other nations and peoples since it began. The prophet of Islam himself was engaged in more than 60 battles during his 23-year prophetic career alone.

Disagree, there could be no Historical <b>fact</b> that Islam is a religion of violence. You're attributing this apparent possibility to the situations they were in at the time. For example by your loose and desperate reasoning, it's historical fact that ALL MEN are violent, if you look at history, Men have been fighting throughout their entire lives on earth. So by your somewhat infant like approach of slotting two and two together, then it's historical fact that ALL MEN are violent. But we of course know it's not historical fact that ALL men are violent. I would say it's Historical fact that <b>Men in certain situations of a certain personality type or who are perhaps charged up aggresive soldiers are violent. </b> Now that is historical fact, but not historical fact that All men are violent. So...it's historical FACT that Islam as a religion has been in a lot of wars i take your word for the number of battles being 60 from the prophet, i'm too tired to look that up right now but yes Islam as a religion has been involved in a lot of wars ok...that's historical fact, BUT, there's no historical facts that say the actual religion is a religion of violence. The only way you'd come to that conclusion is if the central focus of Islam was Violence and hate. And this was written in stone that this was the main focus of Islam, it would have to be written on a stone or scriptures in the past a long time ago and actually say "Islam is a religion of violence or hate others and kill them". And then that stone that this was written on, still exists now, then that's Historical fact that Islam is a religion of violence as you have something more solid to base your "historical fact" on other then wars. So nope to that one i'm afraid.

You proved this to yourself? I’d be interested in knowing how.

Aren't you a sarcastic character...ah well it's all good. Well if you really want me to go into matter, sub atomic particles and Quarks then let me know. Judging by your loose and rapidly crumbling responses you wouldn't have a clue what i was going on about but as you say i don't know you. You may be a scientist, and if you are good, you can teach me some stuff as i'm just getting into this. It involves the five senses and the basis of matter, also the big bang theory and static universe models. And personally to myself i've proved God exists, but of course show athiest this and they will be in denial, no one showed me this proof before that's why i was blind. Look at my Sig, science proves that God exists. However judging by your sarcasm in asking i'll leave it here. Why the question anyway, are you unsure that God exists? Not very solid faith to me...

Most denominations differ mainly in worship styles, beliefs about how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are used, or some other issue that does not affect a person’s salvation. Now, some groups may have some particular teachings that are heretical – that is it breaks from good, sound doctrine. Some of these can be minor; some severe.

Whoops, from your standpoint in this debate you really shouldnt have written the above, because you're actually confirming for me as a Christian that Christianity as it exists today is a loose mess of beliefs and stories. From your own mouth you've lost your argument. But it's facts so...i guess you can't really go elsewhere as that's denial, and i've taught you a little on that haven't i, very good oyu;re learning. I'm sure the people who break from good sound doctrine would be on these very same forums telling me, you are the one who is incorrect, or breaking from "good sound doctirne"

So, what exactly is the point of me going through every single name on this list? Is that helping you at all? Because it sure isn’t helping me and it’s certainly not a good use of my time.

It's nasty really, i shouldn't laugh but i almost feel a little bad for you. I'm not meaning to tear your belief down in such a convincing and defined manner. I'm just responding, i'm learning here too you know...somewhere. So you think it's not good use of your time to respond to an important question regarding your FAITH. Any debate on God to me is good use of my time. But what you're saying is you don't want to respond to the strongest question i've put to you regarding your faith and belief. Because you can see that 95 different sects/ denominations of christianity leave it in a tattered mess. This is why you wish to not answer this most crucual question.


I'd say at this point you should really start testing your faith in your own time. Because you've hit a dead end here. My questions are so simple and boring yet...you can't answer them. And i'm a baby to all of this...wow. You should be doing much better than this against me.


So thats 14 on the list you don't know actually know about, therefore you cannot comment as to whether they are right or not, the rest you want to ignore because the sheer amount....leaves..your....argument....on............shaky ...ground. Like i said. Tell me how it doesn't, how can you be on solid ground in an argument if you don't actually know the subjects or denominations you're debating about. That leaves one on....Shaky ground. Sigh...you're not even trying here.


So let's sum your response to my 95 different sects / denominations of christianity up... You don't know. I didn't know the answer to the Jesus pork thing but you've answered that for me, Jesus never said that you say ok i'll take your word for it as i'm still learning bible now. There's nothing bad about being wrong / losing a portion of debate, i've done it many times. Oooooooooooo - Kay, what's next...

If you HAD truly studied, as you claim you have, then you would realize some of these things already.

How rude you are...tut tut tut not a good expierience with my first "peaceful" Christian in an online debate, i thought i as a Muslim was supposed to be the militant and rude one judging by Historical fact right? Errrr i thought i said that i HAVENT studied the bible fully. Didn't i say that? Go back and re read, then apoligise for your mistake as i did. As i said this...

i'm no Christian expert

and i also said this...

I'm not claiming to be an expert on Christianity like i said,

So these two quotes from myself show you i havent "truly" studied Christianity and no where have i claimed to have truly studied Christianity. Which means you didn't actually read my posts fully, and decided to make up things to make me look bad. Why would you do that, that's not very nice. You don't even know me...i'm hurt. Or maybe you assumed i studied because i've crushed everything you've bought to me so far. In which case, thank you for the compliment.

There is nothing OLDER than the Gospel accounts and they say nothing of another Book coming along. In fact, the Gospels aren’t about a BOOK, but the MESSAGE ABOUT Jesus Christ.

Forgive me, because if Christianity is confusing to someone who's a Christian you for example (see different sects argument). Then it's certainly going to be for someone who hasn't studied it fully 100% To be honest books, stories, accounts, messages, changes, versions ahhhh please. Give me the word of God, not the tampered stories from man. Take your blindfold off ronnie are you really comfortable with this? I mean obviously not, as Muslimah said, you came here in the first place but to the logical thinker, the mess of Christianity is ridiculous. I don't even understand how you can not see this. You should at least say "yes it's a total groundless base of stories, messages and passed on second account stories, but i BELIVE OH LAAAD I BELIVE" I'd accept that easier but intead you're trying to say it's not one massive confusion and it's the solid word of God you are saying that right?... so it's the word of God what is? Good grief RONNIE RONNIE COME ON.

Let me say this one last time for you. Your “little” challenges are nothing to me. They are actually the simplest questions to answer.

Except you haven't answered any of them...lol i'm still waiting for the answer to about 80 of them. They're so simple you can't answer them. I'm not meaning to be this harsh but you bring it on yourself. Honestly.

How can you say that Allah would wish you to do this? Doesn’t the Quran say that Allah does not love the transgressor? Aren’t I committing the most heinous sin, according to Islam, by being a Christian? If Allah does not love me (according to your book), how can you say that he would wish for YOU to love m?

Allah would wish for me to Love you, the only way i can do this, is try to show you Islam, convince you of it's beauty and then love you as a Muslim. I love you because i belive deep down you are Muslim, just people like me who can't word debates as well and as inviting as Muslimah, Umm and the rest of them put you off i'd imagine. In fact ignore me from now on and listen to them...as there's obviously a reason you come here. Unless you decide to continue the debate between us i will say no more and let them speak with you, as i think i'm messing things up here a bit.


Love Anya

[ronniv93]

I think that it is a very good idea to not continue discussion between us. It is fruitless.


You seem to be convincing yourself that you have somehow got me stumped, which you don't. To me, a matter of a denomination is NOT a matter of my faith.


My faith rests upon what has been revealed in the Word of God and my personal walk WITH God.


You don't seem to be grasping the words that I speak to you.


I don't grasp how you think you've got me so confused.


So, we will likely end up nowhere.

[Anyabwile]

I think that it is a very good idea to not continue discussion between us.  It is fruitless.
You seem to be convincing yourself that you have somehow got me stumped, which you don't.  To me, a matter of a denomination is NOT a matter of my faith.


My faith rests upon what has been revealed in the Word of God and my personal walk WITH God.


You don't seem to be grasping the words that I speak to you.


I don't grasp how you think you've got me so confused.


So, we will likely end up nowhere.

Ok but the above in itself is continuing the debate. Saying you wish to no more debate is a convienient slip out for you really, i gave u that option but you still wish to continue and expose the fact you can't answer my questions, when it could have ended above. Therefore I suggest the reason you agree to not continue is because.....you have nothing to present to me, which is fine, i thought as much. Insha allah now you will reflect on our talks. I'll see you when you get there sister.

[Muslimah]

Peace to u ronni, sorry if u got overwhelmed, but u raised many points people were responding.


I need to clarify one point though, actually two.


First the issue of soul and ego which is nafs. Usually non Arabic speakers has a problem understanding this:


http://www.islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=1453


ronni, about the different readings of Quran. The problem ronni is that u have incomplete info, and being in such state is not recommeneded. Seems like u go and get some arguments but not well explained in your mind and come back with them hoping to find they are true. Now whether or not u r really interested is not my issue here. The issue is to explain a raised point for anothers to benefit.


Sorry if I will have to explain very briefly, I can not leave this point unattended.


At the time of the Messenger (salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam), he belonged to the tribe of Quraish. The Arabic language was of course main language spoken. But it was spoken in 7 different dialects. Allah revealed Quran to Mohamed (SAW) through Arch angles Jebreel using those 7 different dialects in order to make it easy for everyone to recite and memorize. So the difference was in the pronunciation never in words. Again words were the same, only pronunciation differed. Just like the difference between US and British english.


Hope this point is clear and I was as brief as possible