An Open Discussion Among Muslim And Non Muslim Members Here

[Muslimah]

Joshua it is not us who say that and I think u read enough Quran to know what I am talking about, however, why not place the Ayahs here again


It has nothing to do with Allah's unlimted Capability. It has to do with how Allah Described Himslef to us in Quran, so if we say other wise we would be transgressing against Allah.


I think u posted this argument on another thread too, and received the same reply which I am about to put here but no prob.


"Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "He is Allah, (the) One.


Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).


<b>He begets not, nor was He begotten;
</b>


And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him" (Quran 112:1-4)


And:"'And exalted be the Majesty of our Lord, He has taken neither a wife, nor a son (or offspring or children)." (Quran 72:3)


Look at the Anger of Allah in the coming Ayah every time I recite this Ayah I tremble Joshua I do, although Alhamdulelah I dont say what is contained therein.


"<b>Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary
</b>). Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Who then has the least power against Allah, <b>if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together
</b>?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things." (Quran 5:17)


Then look at the blame:


"And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.


And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All Knower of all that is hidden and unseen." (Quran 5:117-118)


As u can see, we are not the ones saying that Allah, however, when we discuss with a non Muslim we dont quote Quran for to start with they are not aware the Quran is from Allah, but I think u passed this stage as u admitted.....

[joshua72]

Salam,


I see what youre saying - and I know the Quran specificaly says that Allah was not begotten.


That, I am OK with. What I do not get, is when Muslims say not only say "God was not begotten" which is OK...but then they say "God cannot be begotten <b>because that is a very unclean and ugly process. Do you think a God would do such things</b>?"


It is that statement at the end - that God cannot due things that us humans may say are ugly, unclean, improper. Who are we to say what is ugly, unclean, and unfit for God?


That is all I'm trying to get at.


Sure - the Quran says got WAS not begotten....but (hypotheticaly) what if God decided to begotten? Muslims would say that he cannot be cause it is unclean and unfit for a God. That is equal to telling God what he can and cannot do. Allah is the God, not us - so why would we attempt to lay out the rules for Him?


The Quran says God was not begotten - but if God decided tomorrow that he will be begotten, or that he will eat, or sleep, or do anything a human may say is "unclean" then God is fully able to do that if He wanted to - regardless of how improper we may think it is.

[Muslimah]

Joshua Sobhan Allah u r still very confused, again and again it has nothing to do with Allah's unlimited Capability. They Quran is the word of Allah, Allah revealed it to explain and present all what we need to know, so saying what u r saying or putting such argument would mean that Allah Must Change the Quran to contain such extra info. So in simple words, if hypothetically speaking (astaghfer Allah) Allah was doing any of this, Allah Would have had this contained and fully explained in Quran. BUt instead Allah Say:"There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer." (Quran 42:12)


So if this is how Allah Describe Himself we ought not to accept what u r arguing


Now look here too, u will understand the reason of our reaction:


No son (or offspring or children) did Allah beget, nor is there any ilah (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! <b>Glorified be Allah above all that they attribute to Him</b>!" (Quran 23:91)


See the underlined part.


So Joshua what ever is contained in Quran is eternal and non changable. Hope u got the point.

[Dan]

Bismillah


Look to surah 112:3


"He begets not, nor was He begotten."


This verse seems very clear to me.


Yet let us look at this logically as well. Why do things beget (reproduce)? Do rocks reproduce, or water, or air? They do not need to. They do not live. Most of all, they do not die. Why do living things reproduce? Because they are going to die. If they did not beget, then the species would die. Life would cease. Allah is eternal. Why would He need to perform an action that is only the action of those who will die, an action of those with an end, an action for those who are limited by time? This is why it is not befitting for Allah to beget, most of all though, because He Told us that it is not suitable for His Stature.


Insha'Allah this combined with what others have said helps.


Peace

[Muslimah]

Dan u know I dont prefer to praise but can not help Mash a Allah excellent explanation may Allah bless your knowledge, increase it and protect it.

[joshua72]

I understand that God says he was not begotten. I understand that part completey.


But nowhere in the Quran does it say that God does not become begotten nor beget "because it is unclean and unfit for a God to do".


The point I am trying to make is there there is nothing "unclean or unfit" for Allah to do, as he can do as he pleases, regardless of how we may think about it, thats all.


Another question this discussion has made me aware of....if Jesus (pbuh) was not the Son of God....how does Islam explain the virgin birth of Jesus from Mary?


Surely that is not a thing that happens naturally, and is a miracle that only happened because of Allah's will. This is a specialy event that has only happened once in all of time, and because Allah wanted it to. Because of that, the birth of Jesus is different than that of any other person ever born. Allah does not do that "just because". There must be a sign in that, and the importance of Jesus is very significant and must not be overlooked.


Islam mentions very little of Jesus - only here and there to say he was not the son of God. But for Jesus to be born by a virgin mother is a pure act of Allah, and for it to be small of an issue in Islam completely blows my mind.

[lifutushi]

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God... Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life..." (Hebrews 7:1,3)


(hmm... seems that Melchisedec was far more miraculous....)


(what about these...?)


"...Adam, which was the son of God."(Luke 3:38)


"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair... And when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them..." (Genesis 6: 2,4)


"...Israel is My son, even My firstborn:" (Exodus 4:22)


"...for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn." (Jeremiah 31:9)


"...the Lord hath said unto me (David): 'Thou art My son: this day have I begotten thee." (Psalms 2:7)


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 18:14)


how many sons do 'God' have? Nauzubillah.....

[lifutushi]

What Qur'an says about the birth of Jesus (pbuh)? let's check it out...


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(Surah No 3)


42. "And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, chosen thee above (all) the women of creation.


43. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).


44. This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto thee (Mohammad). Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).


45. Behold! The Angels said: O Maryam! Allah giving you glad tidings of a word from Him; His name will be Maseeh Eisa ibn Maryam, Jesus son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are nearest to Allah.


46. He will speak in the cradle / childhood and in maturity and He will be one of the righteous.


47. She said: O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me? He said: even so, Allah creates what he wills. When He decrees a matter He just says: be and it is


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(Surah 19)


16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.


17 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent to her Our angel and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.


18 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."


19 He said: "Nay I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."


20 She said: "How shall I have a son seeing that no man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"


21 He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed."


22 So she conceived him and she retired with him to a remote place.


23 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"


24 But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-free): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;


25 "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.


26 "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "


27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!


28 "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"


29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"


30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah (not son of Allaah) : He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;


31 "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;


32 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother and not overbearing or miserable;


33 "So Peace is on me the day I was born the day that I die and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! 2485


34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth about which they (vainly) dispute.


35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. ( 19:16-35)


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The Qur'an acknowledges that Jesus was born without a father. Mary, his mother was chosen by God for this purpose. The Qur'an highly reveres her. Surah 19 of the Qur'an is given her name. She is the only woman who is specifically called by name in the Qur'an (Surah 3:42; cf. 21:91; 66:12; 23:50). In line with other Qur'anic references the designation "son of Mary" serves to remind readers that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. She conceived Jesus through God's creative word. (Surah 3:47).


According to a tradition, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said, "When any human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Hadith 506).


The Qur'an denies that God begets or takes to himself offspring (Surah 112). In other places it asks, "How can Allah have a son, when he hath no consort?" (Surah 6:101). Allah "has taken neither a wife nor a son." (Surah 72:3). Such denunciation was directed primarily against the polytheism of the Makkans. However, Muslims use these passages along with passages which deal specifically with heretical trinitarian ideas to condemn the doctrine of the Sonship of Christ as they believe it is taught in Christianity (Surah 19:88-93).


Every messenger of God is a shahid (witness) to the true faith before his people. Jesus' mission as a witness is highlighted in the discourse between him and Almighty God that will take place on the day of judgement but is already written down in the Qur'an, that God will ask him whether he taught people to worship him and his mother beside God. Jesus will certainly deny this and will affirm that he had said, "Worship God, my Lord and your Lord". (Surah 5:116 - 117).


It is thought that the Qur'an also denies the doctrine of the Trinity (Surah 4:171; 5:73,116). However, what it denies is the Trinity that consists of Father, Mother and Son. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that type of trinity or that God is one of three or the third of three. Christians certainly agree that there is no god, but one God. The notion of three gods is as offensive to Christians as to Muslims.


There is nothing in the Bible which could suggest that Jesus ever spoke of Mary being taken as a god beside God. What the Qur'an re-edits is some of the heretical doctrines that were around in those days in Arabia and its neighbouring areas.


It is important to appreciate that Jesus, alone among the founders of the great religions of the world, spoke with authority. Others have claimed to speak the words they have received from God, for example, Moses begins all his teachings with the phrase, "Thus says the LORD". However, Jesus says, "But I say to you...". The people who heard him "were amazed at his teaching, because his message had authority" (Luke 4:32). No other prophet spoke with such authority. Prophets claimed to have a deeper insight into the Truth, however Jesus went further by claiming to be the Truth, the source of all Truth. In the light of his claims and deeds the Bible portrays him as the "image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15) and as the living Word of God through whom He has spoken in a way He never did before (Hebrew 1:1-3). Jesus certainly did not go around saying, "I am God". Indeed, he joyfully acknowledged his dependence upon God. However, the things he said and did convinced his contemporaries that he was stepping into the space reserved for God, acting and speaking for him in a way never seen or heard before.


Christians respond that they do not raise a mere human being to the status of being equal with God but that this Jesus before coming into this world existed with God as his Word. As God is, his Word is. It is due to the glory that Jesus had with God before becoming the Son of Mary that Christians believe in him as coexistent and coequal with God. Jesus as the Son of Mary or as Ibn Adam (the Son of Man) is God az-zahir (revealed).

[umm Zachariah]

Salam Joshua,


You wrote, 'Surely that is not a thing that happens naturally, and is a miracle that only happened because of Allah's will. This is a specialy event that has only happened once in all of time, and because Allah wanted it to. Because of that, the birth of Jesus is different than that of any other person ever born. Allah does not do that "just because". There must be a sign in that, and the importance of Jesus is very significant and must not be overlooked.'


How about Adam?


'It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.' The Noble Qur'an 7.11


No father - no mother, Eve the same no father - no mother. SUBHANALLAH.


If you look again you I think you have almost answered your own question. 'Special event', yes WHEN Allah, SWT, so wills. 'Happened only once'? If you believe in the Qur'an you have the answer there. 'Different than others'? Not according to the Qur'an.


The 'sign' for you is to believe what Allah, SWT, is telling you, His Own Words, to YOU, forwarded in the Qur'an. BUT it is only YOU that can be convinced of His Message to you, no one else. It is YOU that can ANSWER His call.


Think it over again, wish you luck in searching for His truth.


Regards

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom


Mash a Allah my brother and sister made excellent effort here, let me just add something.


As Lifutushi quoted from Quran Allah Did clearly mention about the miraculous birth of Eassa. Allah Had too because this is the whole point.


Matter of fact, having Eassa born from only a mother complments the manifestation of Allah's Ultimate capability. As Umm Zacharia said Allah Created Adam from nothing, but Created Eve from Adam, them complemented the issue by Creating Eassa from Mariam only without a father.


Another point, is that Eassa was sent to Bani Israel (Jews) who were so much absorbed and contained in materialism. As u may see from Quran.


Allah Aimed at shocking them by giving them a total spiritual shift through this birth.